Irish-American Whiskey

[scotty]

Hello. I'm Scotty and reside in florida USA. My obscession to make Irish whiskey came about when we discovered an un opened bottle of old bushmills and decided to try a bayles irish cream recipe. it was great but we used most of the bushmills.

I am a wine maker and recently a distiller of spirits. I found a recipe and a local grain supplier. The first batch was a disaster because i decided to get creative--the second batch seem ok. the third batch will be fortcoming in a few weeks.

The recipe i found is
10 parts malted barley
7 parts un malted barley
1 part rye
1 part wheat
1 part oats.


i never tried any other ratio. i will always appreciate input.
I never drink whiskey which makes evaluation even more dificult.
i am glad i found this place and hope to learn some new tricks for my next mash.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Welcome on board Scotty and much kudos to you for trying to make an Irish Whiskey. However I'm afraid you'll never succeed ... because as your based in the US you'll only ever be able to make American whiskey. Hence by jurisdiction you fail

However I know what your getting at, you want to make an Irish Style whiskey ...

I don't have all the answers but can where you may have a few draw backs ...

There are several factors to consider ...

In the mashing process the larger grains like oats are used more for filtration than taste. Basically when the mash settles ofter being cooked the heavier oats fall to the bottom first and once everything settles the smaller particles of the milled grain (i.e. undisolved flour) is filtered by the heavier oars. It is undesirable to have a wash heavy in light particles as they can burn in the distilation process thus affecting the taste dramatically.

Further, distillation requires a bit of practice to get your cuts right. You are looking for the most pure spirit from the distilation, this is called the heart or middle flow of your distilation. The first part and the last part of any distilation are again considered undesirable as the start and end of the distillation contain very heavy fusel oils and even toxins. This is done by all distillers and only practice can tell you when the good stuff flows and stops. This is above any knowledge I'd have but I think you can tell by the alcohol precentage volume.

Lastly the spirit produced is only a 1/3 of the story ... you then need to cask it in quality oak to create a great whiskey. There is a saying that says ... a quality spirit in bad wood makes bad whiskey but average spirit in good wood can make a good whiskey.

[scotty]

ok on only irish style whiskey. I can easily live with that fact.
I am very familiar with making cuts in distilling. i have an instrument or two in adition to my nose to help me. Oaking i can do with chips for now and i do intend to get a small barrel when i am sure what barrel is the proper one.

I have two towers one for vodka styles and one for the whiskeys.(a pot still tower). I understand that Irish whiskeys are/were tripple distilled in a pot style still--i did this in my last attempt.

I'm wondering if you could elaborate on the grain mix a bit-- i do sparge and have necessary equipment to handle the mashing in just about any maner suggested.

I am here hoping to get suggestion and corrections in adition any method that other folks use.

ill post a pic of my last attempt at making "((IRISH/AMERICAN WHISKEY))





The grains




one of my mashing pots



18 gallons of fermenting mash



This is one of my stills but not the pot still



our irish cream label


one of our whiskey labels




this is a poor picture but the label we use now for fitzgeralds







we chose the name fitzgeralds becaue my lady friends daughter married a fitzgerald an we like his family very much.

[jcskinner]

Hi, Scotty. Good luck with your distilling!
I don't think you'll be able to call your product Irish whiskey unless it's made in Ireland, though.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Yes you may want to rethink your labeling as you could be leaving yourself open to serious liable... I'm not even sure whether you can even do it privately. Basically you are making a claim that if seen in a light that may cast Irish Whiskey in a negative way you could have a few corporates on your case. Pernod Ricard took an Irish Whiskey to task over their label design as they thought it was similar to Jameson so the precedent is there for litigation.

Anyway I wish you the best of luck in your indevour, looks like a great little set up you have there, wish we could do stuff like that over here but unfortunately not. I have a quick question for you ... how much spirit do you reckon you'll get from say a 5 gallon Demi John of Wash? Would not have tought it would be much?

In regards to maturation ... I would not have thought chipping would not be enough, definately consider a good but pre used cask. Fresh oak has a habbit of overpowering a whiskey which is why Irish and scotch only use preused Bourbon or wine casks. You could just buy some small casks and season them yourself with cheap bourbon or sherry or some other strong wine.


... in regards to ratios chat HERE

[jcskinner]

The EU won't permit any whiskey made outside of Ireland to be marketed or sold as Irish whiskey.
It's not a case of a distiller here getting their nose out of joint. The EU won't allow it, and will demand that the US authorities remove the product from market and destroy it. It's like a Napa winery marketing their fizzy white as champagne. It might be made to the methode champenoise, it might even be better than most champagne, but if it isn't produced in the Champagne region of France, you can't call it champagne anywhere in the world.
I'd suggest changing 'Irish Cream' to 'Cream liqueur' and if you're genuinely going with a pure pot still mashbill, just call it 'Pure Pot Still Whiskey'.
Again, you might want to be quick though, as the EU is currently considering a denomination petition and is expected to rule that only whiskey made in Ireland can be called 'Pure Pot Still' at some point next year.

[scotty]

we dont sell any of our products-- i just give it to friends.

the yield fron 5 gallons depends on the potential % of alcohol the wash indicates. using gallons that contain 128 fl ounces we get 128X5=640 ounces-- a typical all grain wash will yield 8%potential alcohol if done very carefully. 8% of 640 ounces is 51.2 ounces of 160 proof or 102 ounces of 80 proof. this is about 80% of a gallon or a bit over 2 qts-- after diluting to 40% and re distilling two more times we dont end up with much.

then remove 50ml of foreshots - the heads and tails--yeesh not much whiskey..

then if you want irish whiskey you need to distill 2 more times.

this is why i make 3-- 7 gallon jugs of wash.
I had a canadian friend bring me imperial gallon demijons which hold 7 usa gallons,

I think after i cleared and distilled those 21 gallons of wash. i had about 5 or 6 350 ml bottles.


i would very much like to here more opinions about my labels.

[jcskinner]

Sorry to be picky about this, but if you want Irish whiskey, actually all you need to do is distill it in Ireland and then leave it here in oak for three years.
It can't be called Irish whiskey if you make it elsewhere. It's a two way street. We can't make bourbon here either, or rather, we could make something very like bourbon, but we'd be hauled through the courts if it appeared anywhere with a label saying 'bourbon' on it.
It would be especially unfortunate if you ended up facing a big legal bill since you're not seeking to profit and are only distilling for yourself and friends, so I'd definitely rethink the description.
Apart from the description, I think your labels look great.

[JohnM]

i would very much like to here more opinions about my labels.

The look like good fun. What does the whiskey taste like?

[DavidH]

then if you want irish whiskey you need to distill 2 more times.

This isn't a requirement. Some Irish whiskey (everything that comes from Cooley) is double-distilled.

[JohnM]

I think I heard somewhere that you have to distill pure pot still Irish whiskey three times - not for legal reasons, though, but to make it palatable.

I asked a solicitor friend about calling this Irish whiskey and he said that it should not be a problem at all if it's not a commercial thing and you're just giving it to friends. Maybe other solicitors would have different opinions, though.

[jcskinner]

I think I heard somewhere that you have to distill pure pot still Irish whiskey three times - not for legal reasons, though, but to make it palatable.

I asked a solicitor friend about calling this Irish whiskey and he said that it should not be a problem at all if it's not a commercial thing and you're just giving it to friends. Maybe other solicitors would have different opinions, though.

Not allowed according to the US Alcohol, Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau, due to an agreement with the EU, as I suspected.
http://www.ttb.gov/rulings/94-5.htm

The agreement says we can't call anything Bourbon or Tennessee Whiskey if it's not US made, and in return the US restricts

"Armagnac," "Calvados," "Cognac," "Brandy de Jerez," "Irish whisky/Irish whiskey," and "Scotch whisky" to distilled spirits products of the Member States of the EU, produced in compliance with Council Regulation (EU) No. 1576/89 and with the laws of the Member States in which those products originate. Further, it is recognized that these products shall continue to be subject to all of the labeling requirements of the US for products imported into the US.

So nothing can be called Irish Whiskey in America unless it complies with both the EU Regulation from 1989 and the Irish Whiskey Act of 1980, both of which restrict production to the island of Ireland.

[JohnM]

I know that rule, but this solicitor said that it would not matter in the slightest if you made it for your own consumption or on a small scale, providing it to friends.

I could make a cardboard box and and write whiskey on it and nobody would care either. If it became a commercial thing, it would be different, of course.

Again, this is only the opinion of one person I talked to and he didn't do any research on the matter. Maybe someone else would have a different opinion. I was just reporting what he said.

Personally, I can't imagine anyone complaining. But maybe they would. And if they did complain, I'm sure they'd just say "stop".

[jcskinner]

I wouldn't want to speculate on hypotheticals.
I think it's great that Scotty is having a go at making a small batch PPS, and is keeping up appraised as to how he's proceeding, step by step.
I wouldn't want to see him get into any trouble because of an errant label, and it is clearly against US law to call anything Irish whiskey that wasn't made to EU standards in Ireland.
It might be best for Scotty to seek legal advice locally to see if there is any wriggle room like you suggest. Personally, if it were me, I wouldn't bother taking the risk.
I'd just call it something different. If it's only going to family and friends, you can always tell em it's an Irish style of whiskey when you give them the bottle.

[DavidH]

There must be some exemption there because there are lots more regulations about what needs to be on a spirits label that hardly apply to homemade hooch.

Anyway, we are missing the wood for the trees here: Scotty is making whiskey! Maximum respect, sir!

[scotty]

i do believe that a slight change in the label will be the smart thing. i always appreciate honest input and suggestions.

my real problem is not being able to really know what it should taste like-- im sure i over oaked it last round-- i tasted the wood even though the whiskey was light.

i wonder if my recipe is familiar to any one? i found it on a website that was in ireland but dont remember where.

10 parts malted barley
7 parts un malted barley
1 part rye
1 part wheat
1 part oats

Would using only one grain for example all malted barly make my stuff similar to any more famous brands.

i have the ability to emulate the fine water from your country and will work on a standard recipe for just that

i'm really enjoying this project-- i read and study many books and will try over and over to make something deservin to be called Irish style whiskey.


then i can brag and show off a bit lol lol

[DavidH]

Would using only one grain for example all malted barley make my stuff similar to any more famous brands.

These days the recipes are either all malted barley (eg Bushmills 10yo, Tyrconnell) or a mix of malted and unmalted barley (Redbreast, Green Spot).

The blends, like Jameson, Black Bush or Kilbeggan, mix one of the above with grain alcohol made from corn.

[scotty]

I have read about these brews using all one style of malt-- are there favorites/favourites??
is this style favored today??
it certaintly seems easier for me to mash with a single grain. in addition an all malt mash would produce more sugars to ferment. i just figured that the other grains had something to do with flavor also.

The simplest bit of information about Irish whiskeys will usually be new information to me--things you folks take for granted for example.

BTW thanks for all the responses. this is a gold mine for me. POT O GOLD lol

[JohnM]

I have a reprint of a very old book called The Manufacture of Whisky and Plain Spirit. I'll have a look through it, as it does indicate some proportions, but maybe only by distillery orders.

Also, you know a lot more about this than me, but the unmalted grain is malted to some degree by the enzymes. I'm sure not to the same degree as the malted stuff, though.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Your recipe is probably okay ... as at the end of the day your only creating a new spirit (i.e. un-matured whiskey) which is basically only a slightly more flavoured spirit than vodka. If you feel you have too much flavour in your spirit dull it down with your own home made vodka. Basically grain whiskey is not far off vodka before it is matured anyway and is made in the same way by certain distilleries i.e. coulnm still.

As already mentioned modern PPS is now only made up of Malted and Un-malted barley and ratios range from 60-40 through 50-50 to 40-60.

By what you say on the wood taste sounds like this is your whole issue I can nearly guarentee is maturation.

Maturation is where Whiskey gets the majority of it's flavour ... but you don't want the wood to be too fresh. Further I think chips are totally unsuitable for your purpose. Basically there is too much oak in contact with the whiskey. Try and picture a large cask of whiskey and the ration of contact to the oak in comparison the the contents.

You really need to consider using seasoned casks. You could buy something like THIS or THIS
The only other Idea I could think of is a sinlge oak stave but whether than can be successful or not is not something I can answer.

Sláinte

[JohnM]

I have read about these brews using all one style of malt-- are there favorites/favourites??
is this style favored today??
it certaintly seems easier for me to mash with a single grain. in addition an all malt mash would produce more sugars to ferment. i just figured that the other grains had something to do with flavor also.

The simplest bit of information about Irish whiskeys will usually be new information to me--things you folks take for granted for example.

BTW thanks for all the responses. this is a gold mine for me. POT O GOLD lol

And old recipe from Morewood's book is - one quarter malt, one quarter oats, and half barley. Another estimate by the same author is one fifth malt, two thirds barley and the rest oats.

Today, the don't use oats and go for around 60:40 unmalted to malted barley. The distilleries run different fermentation times too and all sorts of different things.

[scotty]

I am finally realizing just how presumptious i have been.
I feel an apology along with my thanks is very much in order.
I am as exited as a 68 year old man can be about finding a website dedicated to what seems to have become another obcessionof mine.

In readin diferent threads i see i have found a group of avid collectors. I just asumed everyon wanted to distill the stuff.
i hang with this group of distillers http://www.brewhausforum.com/index.php

Naturally being a yank i dont know very much about other countrys. sorry

well having said that i hope that i dont seem or get too bold.

Let me change the subject a bit now.

The USA is a very diferent place than the post ww2 of 50 years ago. It was not uncommon to know folks who were born in diferent countrys.
i grew up in my dads store-- all sorts of accents and totally foriegn languages were spoken there often.
at any rate, i have many friends up north that are irish decent.KELLYS related by marriage--ennis and isles related by growing up in the same town--mcloughlins just friends for years and the list goes on. they are waiting for me to come up with a batch of fitzgeralds IRISH style whiskey so when they visit cocoa beach this winter i can drive over and give them a taste and perhaps even allow them to smuggle a drop or to to the Mc Loughlins or the kellys.
the ennis tribe comes to florida in the winter.

Well i just wanted to say something about being presumptious and naturally ramble on a bit.. I guess i should confess that my rambling is not blarney but just italian blabbing.

[scotty]

I have a reprint of a very old book called The Manufacture of Whisky and Plain Spirit. I'll have a look through it, as it does indicate some proportions, but maybe only by distillery orders.

Also, you know a lot more about this than me, but the unmalted grain is malted to some degree by the enzymes. I'm sure not to the same degree as the malted stuff, though.

i will search for that book-- if i can find a book or two that i import directly from ireland i would be in 7th heaven

[scotty]

wow that book is a collectable $150 US money yikes
in the event that any one can recomend a book seller in Ireland i might be able to find something that teaches how it is brewed and distilled.
i HAVE COPIED THE RATIOS OG GRAINS MENTIONED IN THE POSTS above------oops all caps sorry

[jcskinner]

It's a pity you're a long way from the West coast, otherwise I'd have suggested trying to lay your hands on a sweet red wine cask from a winery to capture that genuine old-style Irish PPS taste.
But it seems like you're well on top of the mashbill. I agree with IWC, the wood might be your problem. Teabagging chips isn't going to bring about the result you want. As IWC said, laying your hands on a small oak cask and seasoning it with wine might be the best way forward.
Do let us know what you do and how it goes. This is a fascinating process.