What are you having yourself?

[Fionnán]

Just one little thing to add here - apparently the Woodford Reserve bourbon you currently buy isn't all from the Woodford pot still distillery but is blended with bourbon from Brown Forman's other distillery - Early Times, which is not a pot still operation.

Still good whiskey though.

Brown Forman also own Jack Daniels. Personally i dislike the entire company from Jack Daniels to Canadian Mist to Southern Comfort. That being said, the woodford reserve distillery itself is a bit of a diamond in the rut. Jack Daniels have a really terrible habit of filtering whiskey and presenting that as a premium product. in my opinion they sell liquor like petroleum and advertise whiskey like vodka, convincing many that what they should be looking for is not interesting flavour but rather no flavour at all. The whole 'so smooth you can drink it straight' line of thinking. Its not so much the sheer presence of bottom shelf spirit which is fine and, of course, inevitable so much as the fraud of products like gentleman jack etc and the money they pour into advertising a luxury culture of nothing at all that gets on my nerves. It actually really irritates the hell out of me.

On the subject of woodford reserve, i'm very happy to see the pot still return to bourbon where it used to be king although, again, its frustrating when the bosses at BF pull a stunt like the one iain mentioned above. i'd just like some honesty from them

[IainB]

I think the blending of different bourbons under one brand name is prefercly legal in the US. Sure you could argue it is somewhat misleading. Then again, how many people are aware that Jameson isn't actually made in Bow st - every bottle has that address rather than the cork one.

What about Bushmills blends using grain whiskey from Midleton?

Or the fact that whiskey labelled as Kilbeggan can come from either Kilbeggan or Riverstown?

Ireland isn't exactly up to scratch on clear and trasnparent labeling either.

[Fionnán]

oh its perfectly legal, the difference is that jameson arent presenting their whiskey as pure pot still wheras woodford reserve make it known round the clock that they're using pot stills.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Yes, I can understand Fionnáin's frustration on corporate waffle and premiumisation of mass produced non premium products. However that is the world we live in and it is up to us to educate people. Not that JD is crap but that there is better out there. Personally I think there is space for everything and the big mass produced stuff creates the money for the small batch quality stuff. This became especially apparent with IDL on the flogging of Jameson to death around the world and doing an amazing job on it too might I add. However the up shot of this is the resurgence of SPS as a category which may have never happened only for the success of the lowly blend that is Jameson.

Iain you also have an excellent point on the lack of clarity even with in the Irish industry and it is also rife in the Scotch industry. You will see very few main stream scotch blends proudly displaying the fact they have at least 5,10,15, 20, 25% malt content etc

No harm keeping the pressure on though

unfortunately it is a double edged sword. In a crowded market it is necessary to invest in massive promotion and that can cheapen a product in our eyes. Then success brings demand which can actually affect the product too. In whiskey terms that usually means younger whiskey. It's a very hard line to draw and which side do you put your product on ????

[IainB]

oh its perfectly legal, the difference is that jameson arent presenting their whiskey as pure pot still wheras woodford reserve make it known round the clock that they're using pot stills.

Hey I'm not arguing, it's more that what they're doing isn't a million miles from what we do here.

And in fairness Powers NAS has "distinctive Pot Still character" or some such thing on the label, as do most of the Jameson products. Unlike Scotland, blends in Ireland are NOT clearly labelled as such. Yes there's rules about using the terms pot still or single malt, but you don't have to specify if something is a blend. To the casual eye you could suggest that some of the IDL labels do suggest pot still whiskey.

And what about Kilbeggan?

In fairness I should have been clearer about something at the start - not all versions are blends with Early Times but the standard ones appear to be, at the moment.

[Fionnán]

oh absolutely Iain-- dont worry, i have problems with plenty of practices on this side of the atlantic as well... and, again, i do appreciate the fact that woodford reserve distillery exists at all. I've learned to make the most of the slippery labeling etc, its just the lying to my face that i really dislike on brown forman's part. they also do some kind of kentucky derby promotion for example in which they claim that 'woodford reserve is the official bourbon of the mint julip' and then promptly sell official mint julips etc made with earlier times, seeing no problem between these two decisions. it just really starts to get under my skin after a while.

In contrast, I would point at Jim Beam as a better example. Jim Beam is not good whiskey but it certainly foots the bill and allows them to make things like Knob creek, Basil Haydens and Bookers which are excellent bourbons (bookers especially imo). Say what you will about "jim beam" the product and its associated brands like jim beam rye etc, Fred Noe (and Booker Noe before him) really do care about whiskey and they use those profits to preserve some rather incredible stuff which they smartly sell under entirely different labels. This, in my opinion at least, is closer to the IDL model and should be commended. Its not the presence or the popularity of JD that i dislike so much as BF's premiumisation etc out of thin air with things like "Gentleman jack" etc.

[IainB]

I've never really given BF much thought before now - I don't mind JD as a rough and ready drink sometimes and would generally prefer it to the standard Jim Beam. On the other hand, as you rightly point out, Jim Beam make a range of very very good whiskeys - I've tried a few of those listed and they're certainly superior from almost anything I've tried from the BF stable, Woodford Reserve apart.

[Fionnán]

oh absolutely-- i've always been a fan of beam as a company. They're a bit like an American grant and sons in that they're a large operation (large enough as we all know to invest in buying something like cooley) that are still centered around whiskey and run by the beam family (even to the point that the distillers are still family members... the Noe bunch are descended from one of the beam sisters.) I've spoken to Fred Noe once or twice and he's very passionate about the real stuff and very proud of the fact that his dad was one of the great believers in the rebirth of premium bourbon in the US before small batch and all that became popular. As sad as i was to see cooley sold, i'd much rather see them in the hands of a company like beam then say, well, Brown Forman.

[IainB]

Fair enough. We all have corporates we dislike - mine's Tesco. And McDonalds. And Mansanto.

[Fionnán]

all we need now is a tesco own-brand whiskey, made by jack daniels with genetically modified monsanto grains, inaccurately labeled, and drunk with a big mac and fries

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Don't forget Starbucks ... I mean they ruined the shopping mall in the Simpson's

[IainB]

all we need now is a tesco own-brand whiskey, made by jack daniels with genetically modified monsanto grains, inaccurately labeled, and drunk with a big mac and fries

After which Monsanto will own the right to our DNA and we will have to pay them a royalty just to exist.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

I caved in and having a little Jemmie 18yo.

Very nice ... really need to have a HTH with the 12yo and Gold to re-assess which is the best of this excellent range.

[IainB]

I'd usually say best - 18, best value - 12.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

I'd usually say best - 18, best value - 12.

Yea, not a bad way to put it.

just had a mini revelation here ... being a bit peckish broke out the Carrs water biscuits (i.e. crackers ) and some mature cheddar.

It really seems to enhance the Jameson. The flavours in the J-18 really become much more mouth filling.

I think I have found a lovely combination for weeknights

[IainB]

Yeah I always like applewood with the Jamesons.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Yeah I always like applewood with the Jamesons.

I'm lost now?!?! Presuming your not eating twigs from your apple tree out back is applewood a type or brand of cheese?

Excuse my ignorance ...

Now that i think about it, yes, this particular Jameson seems like it is a nice whiskey to go with food.

[IainB]

Yeah I always like applewood with the Jamesons.

I'm lost now?!?! Presuming your not eating twigs from your apple tree out back is applewood a type or brand of cheese?

Excuse my ignorance ...

Now that i think about it, yes, this particular Jameson seems like it is a nice whiskey to go with food.

Smoked applewood. It's an english smoked cheddar. They use applewood to smoke it.

I wonder what whiskey would be like matured in an applewood barrell.

Probably appley.

[DavidH]

I wonder what whiskey would be like matured in an applewood barrel.

I wondered if that would be a leaky cask but it seems apple wood casks have been used in Hungary for aging palinka (along with mulberry casks, which I knew from Zoltan). Needs a tight grain. We should try these things in Ireland before we end up with an EU rule that oak must be used (as Scotland requires).

[Fionnán]

theres a really terrible gimmicky company called Mickey Finn that sells "apple flavored irish whiskey" in the states thats been "partially aged in a barrel that used to hold apples" --(not applewood mind you, just a barrel that used to hold apples in it at some point). its part of some prohibition bootlegging marketing shtick they've got going and its the only thing campier than inish turk begs shtick that i can think of. I saw them at some whiskey event in SF once. the normal stuff is a pretty neon-foul liqueur but they also got ahold of some normal whiskey and just stuck it in an apple barrel.


http://mickeyfinnwhiskey.com/home.php

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Smoked applewood. It's an english smoked cheddar. They use applewood to smoke it.

I wonder what whiskey would be like matured in an applewood barrell.

Probably appley.

Ahh Cheers, sounds nice actually, must get my hands on some. There is a decent Cheese Mongers in Galway that I pop into every now and then, I must check with them.

I wonder what whiskey would be like matured in an applewood barrel.

I wondered if that would be a leaky cask but it seems apple wood casks have been used in Hungary for aging palinka (along with mulberry casks, which I knew from Zoltan). Needs a tight grain. We should try these things in Ireland before we end up with an EU rule that oak must be used (as Scotland requires).

I wonder what size these are, I read in an article in Whisky Advocate, a while back, thet seemingly you can only get one cask from a fully mature Oak tree ... so how many apple trees would you need to get a half decent size cask, sounds like too much trouble if it is the case. But would be great for private experiments ...

Now when is Z going back to Hungary ...

[Fionnán]

he told me the other day hes going back around march 13th. get on his case while there's still time

[DavidH]

You could experiment with applewood chips first (IainB's cheese might work too, if you don't mind the extra cheese flavour). Just to see if it's worth going full-scale.

I'm having tea, by the way.

[varizoltan]

he told me the other day hes going back around march 13th. get on his case while there's still time

spot on, off the 13th,

different types of wood used in Hungary to mature Palinka,

what people usually use is 5-10 liter cask, but you can get anything from 1L-200L

the Palinka House of Bekes, offering 5-50 Liter casks to mature Palinka in a private safe, in the basement of the new visitor centre, only opened a few months ago. http://palinkacentrum.bekesipalinka.hu/ ... inkatrezor

if you want any cask, let me know, and i can get you as many you want to play with, in any wood type

here is my 2 casks, top left is 20L new Hungarian oak, and the big baby is fresh bourbon 203L (i got it polished up), full of good all Hungarian, Bekesi Pot Still Triple Distilled Whiskey

[varizoltan]

sipping my new blend again, with some cocoa atelier chocolates