Caramel E150

[bredman]

Interesting Blog entry from the Master of Malt putting E150a to the test: http://www.masterofmalt.com/Blog/post/Can-you-taste-Caramel-%28E150a%29-in-Whisky.aspx

I had a laugh at this the other day. "Can you taste caramel in whisky?" So let's not put any in whisky, but lets put some in water. I'd expect 8 year old children in play school to be more comprehensive. Besides, many claim it has an effect rather than a flavour. That's MoM credibility out the window.

Also a recent response on the matter from Whyte and Mackay's master blender Richard Paterson, who was just named Whisky Magazine's 'Whisky Ambassador of the Year'. (from http://whisky.scotsman.com/viewnews.aspx?id=680)

So Richard Paterson parrots the industry line. It's to be expected and of no use at all to any discussion. ( that's RP's credibility out the window )

[bredman]

A small ( and quickly gathered ) sample list of those producers that have decided to dump the use of caramel - there will be others i'm not sure about, and some of these are recent.

English Whisky Co.
Ardbeg
Bruichladdich
Benromach
Bladnoch
Benriach
Burn Stewart malts (Bunnahabahain, Deanston, Ledaig, Tobermory)
Balblair
Compass Box
Cadenhead's
Douglas Laing
Glencadam
Glendronach
Glenmorangie ( they colour the "Original" only )
Glenglassaugh
Highland Park
Isle of Arran
Kilchoman
Kilkerran/Glengyle
Port Askaig + SMOS
Springbank/Longrow/Hazelburn
Signatory
Wemyss (single casks only)

There are dozens more from all over the world. This list isn't comprehensive, but just to illustrate the growing number of British producers that recognise the benefits of omitting e150a. There are a large number that release e150 free bottlings across some/most of their range, and a few dipping their toe for the first time, e.g. Glenfiddich's Snow Phoenix.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

I had a laugh at this the other day. "Can you taste caramel in whisky?" So let's not put any in whisky, but lets put some in water. I'd expect 8 year old children in play school to be more comprehensive. Besides, many claim it has an effect rather than a flavour. That's MoM credibility out the window.

That's actually a valid point but it is an interesting experiment all the same.

So Richard Paterson parrots the industry line. It's to be expected and of no use at all to any discussion. ( that's RP's credibility out the window )

Hey Bredman, your a total cynic

I suppose it is not very strange though that we take what Industry people tell us with a pinch of salt ....

[John]

In terms of legislation, does anyone know what rules govern the listing of ingredients and additives on product packaging? Why do food producers go to such lengths to show everything that goes into their products whereas distilleries do not have to list their inputs in the same manner? Surely drinks are also regarded as foodstuffs?
J.

[bredman]

So Richard Paterson parrots the industry line. It's to be expected and of no use at all to any discussion. ( that's RP's credibility out the window )

Hey Bredman, your a total cynic

It is my duty, and an honour.

I suppose it is not very strange though that we take what Industry people tell us with a pinch of salt ....

My point is that we all know the industry line, and we shouldn't be surprised if RP sticks to it rigidly. He is an industry spokesman, personally i find him to be an egocentric and therefore more unlikely to ever go against his own ( perfect?? ) creations, hence my raspberry fart upthread.

[Michael Foggarty]

Has anyone considered that the industry may actually be telling the truth, that carmel offers the consistancy and its not to con people in thinking the whiskey is older ????

[bredman]

I have. I'll consider anything. What we need is full list of added ingredients on the labels, so if consistency is your primary requirement you don't have to read the label, you can just look at the colour, and purchase. I know some feel this would be unnecessary label clutter, but so be it. Alcoholic beverages should be labelled in the same way as all other foods and drinks. Industry lobbying to have it this way is underhand at best, what do they have to hide.

If they're hiding something then they are not telling the truth, are they not ????

Has anyone considered that the industry may actually be telling the truth, that carmel offers the consistancy and its not to con people in thinking the whiskey is older ????

Too convenient for them, because that is what happens. People do think it's older, or from fresher casks, or from sherry casks.


( Didn't they ban the use of paxarette over concerns of it being overused, not quite the same thing but still, shows that they know of such principals, iirc )

[JohnM]

I think the master of malt test seems a very good one.

They could also have put the colouring in a whisky they know doesn't have it in to begin with. I suspect it's harder to detect in whisky than in water. Just a suspicion, of course.

[bredman]

In terms of legislation, does anyone know what rules govern the listing of ingredients and additives on product packaging? Why do food producers go to such lengths to show everything that goes into their products whereas distilleries do not have to list their inputs in the same manner? Surely drinks are also regarded as foodstuffs?
J.

A response by the Food Standards Agency ( not sure about Ireland ) concerning the addition of e150a to whisky.

General rules on the labelling, presentation and advertising of foods are set out in Directive 2000/13/EC and these are implemented in Scotland by the Food Labelling Regulations 1996 (as amended)(FLR’s). Regulation 18(1)(f) of the FLR’s exempts any drink with an alcohol strength by volume of more than 1.2 per cent from the need to list ingredients.

“Ingredient” is defined in regulation 2 of the FLR’s and means “any substance including any additive, any food enzyme and any constituent of a compound ingredient, which is used in the preparation of a food and which is still present in the finished product, even in altered form, and a “compound ingredient” shall be composed of two or more such substances.”

As drafted, the proposal will extend ingredient listing (including nutrition information) to alcoholic drinks with the exception of beer, wine and spirits. If the proposal is agreed by the Council, Parliament and the Commission, these alcoholic drinks will be exempt for up to five years from the coming into force date of the new Regulation. During this period the European Commission will be required to draft a report examining the viability of including the provision of ingredient listing for these alcoholic drinks i.e. the Commission will have this obligation.

Not sure what alcoholic drinks are not beer, wine, or spirits.

[bredman]

I think the master of malt test seems a very good one.

They could also have put the colouring in a whisky they know doesn't have it in to begin with. I suspect it's harder to detect in whisky than in water. Just a suspicion, of course.

I would love to know for sure. But water is a palate cleanser, not a complex soup of volatile flavours and esters. If e150 does coat and inhibit the palate ( for quite some time with some individuals ) what is to be gained by tasting water afterwards, or at the same time. ( also: this will be difficult to prove if only some people are sensitive, e.g. look at sulphur ). All MoM proved is that those particular testers could not detect 'their' e150a sample in water.

[DavidH]

Has anyone considered that the industry may actually be telling the truth, that carmel offers the consistancy and its not to con people in thinking the whiskey is older ????

There is no argument about this, surely? The addition of caramel to some whiskeys goes far beyond the amount needed for batch consistency.

The use of caramel got grandfathered into law not because it's a good thing or a necessary thing but because distillers were using it for whatever purpose and they told the legislators what to write in the statute books. Perhaps laws should be framed for consumers (proper labelling) or for the reputation of this island's food and drink industry as a whole ("Irish produce is natural and additive-free").

[dave-c]

I had a laugh at this the other day. "Can you taste caramel in whisky?" So let's not put any in whisky, but lets put some in water. I'd expect 8 year old children in play school to be more comprehensive. Besides, many claim it has an effect rather than a flavour. That's MoM credibility out the window.

I think it's a perfectly sensible experiment, that doesn't claim to be anything other than what it is. In my mind it holds more weight than the anecdotal 'some people say...'. I also like that MoM encourage people to experiment with E150 for themselves, to make up their own minds. Which is the right way to go about it if you are concerned that there may be an effect.

As for the major blenders, it's in their interests to add caramel and I don't blame them. However, I agree with the arguments here for requiring that information to be on the label. I think the only way the practise will change is if they lose market share to the 'No Artificial Colouring' producers, but that will never happen as 90% of their customers don't care.

[bredman]

I think it's a perfectly sensible experiment, that doesn't claim to be anything other than what it is.

Maybe they should have called it "Can you taste/detect caramel colouring in water".

As for the major blenders, it's in their interests to add caramel and I don't blame them. However, I agree with the arguments here for requiring that information to be on the label. I think the only way the practise will change is if they lose market share to the 'No Artificial Colouring' producers, but that will never happen as 90% of their customers don't care.

It's probably more than 90%. Possibly as many are unaware that (some) whisky is artificially coloured. I've told 'non-whiskey anorak friends' who were shocked and surprised ( and ultimately disappointed ). I stated before that a little education can go a long way. There are two Glenmorangie Originals on a supermarket shelf, one claims to be "Free Of Artificial Colouring", and the other states "Contains Artificial Colouring That May Interfere With Flavour For Some Individuals". After a year which would sell the most units? That would be a good experiment. imo.

[John]

I was in Marks & Spencer (Dundrum) yesterday and on the reverse label of a bottle of Slieve Foy Irish Whiskey (Cooley) they had 'Plain Caramel' listed as one of the ingredients. I admire their honesty and wish all the producers would be more forthcomming . I haven't tried it yet but hopefully I'll get a chance over the comming weeks.

[varizoltan]

I was in Marks & Spencer (Dundrum) yesterday and on the reverse label of a bottle of Slieve Foy Irish Whiskey (Cooley) they had 'Plain Caramel' listed as one of the ingredients. I admire their honesty and wish all the producers would be more forthcomming . I haven't tried it yet but hopefully I'll get a chance over the comming weeks.

i got 2 bottles from the same spot, and there was ony one more left

it is dryer and not as sweet as the Dun Leire, but i will try them side by side next week

the colour is not too "dark" so i think there is just a bit of caramel in it, there is not much finish, just dry palate and hay taste

i am not too impressed with this

for the same price i would buy Tyrconnell Single malt any day

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

We had a brief but very interesting chat with David Quinn (one of the Midleton Masters) in relation to E150a.

What I found out was a surprise and may not please some of the purists here

Basically IDL use E150a on a need to go basis.

The example of Redbreast 12yo was the one given and the answers to whether it is coloured or not is yes and no ?????

Redbreast 12yo has no major need to be coloured in general and there would be slight colour variations between batches however ever sometimes it may need to touched up to differentiate from another whiskey as sometimes the colour profile is almost identical to another brand naturally so there is a marketing need to have it at a slightly different level. The amounts used are very minuscule in comparison to the majority cheap blends as there is plenty of natural colour in the first place.

[John]

We had a brief but very interesting chat with David Quinn (one of the Midleton Masters) in relation to E150a.

When/where exactly did exactly did David drop that bombshell IWC?? I don't like the idea that they might be putting it into Redbreast batches one bit I can tell you!

Have we potentially found the answer for the difference between the 2005 & 2009 RB 15yo releases for instance?
J.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

We had a brief but very interesting chat with David Quinn (one of the Midleton Masters) in relation to E150a.

When/where exactly did exactly did David drop that bombshell IWC?? I don't like the idea that they might be putting it into Redbreast batches one bit I can tell you!

Have we potentially found the answer for the difference between the 2005 & 2009 RB 15yo releases for instance?
J.

Firstly many have reported the use of E150a in Redbreast before and others have actually stated that it does not. This has been one of the main bug bears that people have in relation to IDL, and the fact that these conflicts are out there. Therefore the comment on the use of E150a kind of explains the how come all this confusion has happened. Not sure if I would go as far as saying it as a bomb shell though. I have to admit that it does not overly bother me. But that is neither here not there. However what is positive is that we know know that IDL are happy to talk about what exactly they are doing.

I know that it will probably not make any difference to you but what David Quinn was highlighting is that it is more of a scenario of shading rather than colouring and the amounts they use are even more minimal than normal blends from other distilleries. The Midleton whiskey (even Bourbon casks) have a decent amount of colour in them in comparison to the Bourbon casks of many other distilleries. One of the reasoning behind it is that they want to make sure that their whiskeys do not have an identical colour which is very possibly with similar age stated whiskeys.