Single Grain Whiskies.

[John]

Hi All,

Is the pending closure of the Port Dundas distillery in Scotland yet another sign that single grain whiskies are not threading water in Europe?

Discuss

All the best,
John.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

I don't think the Port Dundas closure was a shock really. Especially when Diageo they have invested so heavily in the expansion of the Cameronbridge grain distillery in Fife (And Roseilse Malt Distillery in Speyside). This is really just economies of scale and I'd say very little to do with current climate and was going to happen anyway. In 2000 Cameronbridge reopened after they spent over £9m renovating it and it now has a reputed out put of 30 MLA (Million Liters of Alcohol) and no is the opportune moment to close Port Dundas.

This therefore just shows that there is no fall off in the requirement of Grain.

What I notice in other forums is that everybody goes on about Single Malt whiskey as if it is the only product Scotland produces of any consequence and that blends are really only a triviality and minor part of the industry. This is further from the truth. The admirable enthusiasm in single malts over shadows the fact that the Scottish whisky industry is still totally reliant on the blend.

People sometimes forget that even though all the emphasis seems to be on the single malt variety, this is a biased view of Scotch whisky as 90% of all Scotch whisky sold in the world is the lowly blend. Granted when you take single malt on it's own terms it probably still sells close to double the combined out put of Irish whiskey .

Anyway the point is there will be no major let up in the production of Grain as Grain is the un-crowned king of Whisk(e)y

[John]

"Anyway the point is there will be no major let up in the production of Grain as Grain is the un-crowned king of Whisk(e)y"

Ok IWC, I'm going to need you to come off the fence on this I guess the Single Grain has it's place on the shelves after all. I have to say though I'm not a fan; give me a pot still, blend or single malt anyday. You mentioned a figure of 30 MLA for the new Cameronbridge distillery; do have a figure for the single-grain output alone?

Cheers,
J.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

I'm such a cluts (sic) ... I totally mis-read your post ........ as usual and missed your point (I really need to start re-reading posts before I post)

Single Grain whiskey as a product is a totally different kettle of fish ...

I think Greenore is probably the only successfully marketed Single Grain whisk(e)y full stop. And whether it can be judged as successful is debatable as the volumes are so low. But it has grabbed the imagination and possibly created a small bit of interest in the whole area.

There have been numerous bottling of Invergordon Single Grain but these are mainly adhoc single cask offerings from various different independent bottlers. There has also been others from other single grain distilleries and I even think Compas Box are doing a grain whisky too but I would hazzard a guess that Greenore is the longest running brand of any such type of whiskey which in itself tells us a lot about demand for such stuff. You can be sure if there was a cut and dry demand for it it would be flooding the shelves.

In relation to Cameronbridge all I know is that it is soley into production of Grain spirit and that the output figure is theoretical capacity but other than that I have no idea of actual out put is.

[John]

Hey no worries IWC,
Thanks for the mail though - seriously mate you're a mine of information
I've seen some of the Invergordon releases and of course the Greenores and like you said I also get the impression that they're there to 'test the water' so to speak.
All the best,
John.

[Willie JJ]

a couple of things:

Adrian its true that most other forums do concentrate on malts almost to the point of exclusion of blends. I think that's just because given the choice, the vocal majority of forum members would prefer a malt to a blend, so that's what gets talked about. It doesn't mean that there is no awareness that it is grain that drives the industry. On the contrary, the discussion often takes the form of the problems caused to malt production by the industry emphasis on blends. Also we do on ocassion have a blend tasting online. It's not that folk have forgotten about blends its just that (rightly or wrongly) they find more interest (I think variety is the word I'm groping for) in malts.

Secondly, there are Scotch single grains galore on the market and have been for years. Diageo have been selling Cameron Brig (NAS) for years and many other distillers have had OBs of their grains: Invergordon and Loch Lomond are two that spring readily to mind. Also, there have been independent bottlers marketing them for many years. Cadenhead have been releasing single grains for longer than I can remember, Duncan Taylor started a range of older single grain whiskies a few years ago and Douglas Laing, Signatory, Dewar Rattray and many others have all released many bottlings. In living memory there have been 15 Scottish grain distilleries (I don't know about Irish, that's why I'm here), 7 are currently open, but the loss of Port Dundas will reduce that to 6. Over the years there have been bottlings from them all in one form or another, so I think we could say that over the years there has been some interest in/demand for single grain. I recognise the distinction that you make with the 'successfully marketed' point. Greenore may be the only one that has been marketed to any real degree, but Diageo keep bottling Cameron Brig, so there must be some sales volume.

Anyway, aplogies for bringing my Scottish ethnocentric view on this, but I'm hoping to learn more about the Irish side of things from you guys.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Thanks for posting Willie

No it's great to have the Scotish point of view as that is the balance we require at times.

I understand the point of view that there are so many great single malts that maybe one might not want to waste their time deviating, which is fair enough. I also realise that many SIngle malt fans will have a decent exposure to blends. And I know in your case Willie that you have a very balanced view of whisk(e)y. But I do get slightly bored on the emphasis on Malt I suppose. Then we have certain distillery emphasis too and only for the likes of you I probably would have only tried the top 10 distilleries and never heard about golden nuggets like Mortlach and other unknown or unpopular distilleries.

It's good to know about the availability of Scotch grain whisky. I was very unsure myself as there is so little talk about the whole area of grain whisky. It's good to know there is a well established base line of Grain whiskys and there is already a long established brand in Cameron Brig. Thanks for clearing that up as I was only guessing due to lack of information.

[Whiskey Pilgrim]

Kaixo Guys,
Its quite ironic to see the Single Grain Whiskey catagory being marketed,as it was the Irishman Mr Coffey who invented the Patent"silent"still for Grain whiskey.It also should be noted that fado fado both single malt and single grain were never sold as individual expressions but rather component parts to blends and vats.
That said thank the Gods that some bright spark had the foresight and the "bottle"(excuse the pun) to present single malts to the world.
According to Jim Murrays whisk(e)y bible Clontarf black label, the Snow grouse are grain whiskies,is this true????
At our Bilbao whiskey fair last week called Grain Bilbao, Greenore 8yr became our Poster boy being the only Grain at the event aroused great attention and acclaim.....

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Kaixo Guys,
It also should be noted that fado fado both single malt and single grain were never sold as individual expressions but rather component parts to blends and vats.
That said thank the Gods that some bright spark had the foresight and the "bottle"(excuse the pun) to present single malts to the world.
.....

Not quite true ... single malts were always drunk in scotland it was just they were never known as single malts just whisky. Single malt as a term is quite modern phenomenon and as a propper industry term and style descriptor probably only came into fashion in the 1980's. The drinking of the pure whisky was always quite a local affair. The locals of islay especially always drank their local product as a pure unadultrated product. It was when the city traders like Walkers that started blending their single malts to create a more consistant whiskey for their so called more decerning city customers that the blend came about. However it was basically people were not used to certian stronger tasting whisky's and the blended whisky seemed more palatable. In the early days it was blends of malt only.

The arrival of grain whisky meant that the scotch could lighten their whiskies even more and the rest the say is history. However there are many accounts of grain whisky being sold as a stand alone product too. It was a massive in England and this is when we had major discussion in the English parlimant against sale of such whisky. The Irish claimed it was not whisky but silent spirit and even today they would not of been able to call it whisky as it was often matured for less than a year. But it was cheap and could be produced quickly and in massive quantities. The english parliment originally banned the practice but on appeal the scottish grain distillers won and sure why would the english parliment go against it ??? They still got their excise from the sale of this product and actually sasw that they could get more as it was produced more quickly and sold more because it was much cheaper.

[charleymcguffin]

Seems a good place to slip in this cartoon by Jim Fitzpatrick's granddad on the evils of the "silent spirit" and it being forced on us by John Bull.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

I love those old cartoons they can be quite entertaining ... By the way Charlie how do you know it is Jim Fitz's grandfather, I quite a fan of Jim's work.

He's doing stuff currently of the the 1916 lads slightly in the vein of his Che picture.

P.S. you are slightly late to this thread it's from 2009

[charleymcguffin]

The cartoon is from " The Leprecaun" cartoon monthly published and drawn by Thomas Fitzpatrick who was indeed Jim's grandfather . A book was published earlier this year on "The Leprecaun" by Four Courts Press . The above cartoon is not from the book ,but from an old copy of the magazine. The magazine was very decidedly nationalistic and many of the cartoons were very anti John Redmond. I am a great fan of Jim's work and have one of the original print runs of the "floral" Che.