Cork Distilleries Co old bottle

[Joel1802]

Can anyone shed any light on this:

$(KGrHqJHJFcFBuFyokMtBQfI!K4ryw~~60_58[1].jpg (67.69 KiB) Viewed 4170 times

The bottom lable references both the Northmall and Middleton distilleries. There are more pictures if they'd help. Just bought one. It came in a wood case branded Cork Distilleries and had a flyer inside that had a picture of a hygene certificate awarded for their purity and quality from London.

[Good Whiskey Hunting]

An interesting bottle. I was following the auction. Was that the stuff Paddy Flannery was giving out to the locals and subsequently became known as Paddy.

Here's my favoured Midleton from that era. I'd like to get the regular one too.

[Joel1802]

Very nice! I'll take three. I didn't even win the auction, but it turned out there was a second bottle. He sent me some other pics of the box and the flyer. I'm trying hard to place what approximate time it is from, the clues all see to lead to something around 1920 - 1940. The Northmall bit is very interesting, but since it was turned into a bottling plant maybe the name got left on the lable despite no whisky from it being inside the bottle?

[JohnM]

I have a few bottles of this, but without the certificate and the box. That sounds nice.

The North Mall distillery closed around 1920. They may have had it on the label still after it closed, of course, like Jameson have Bow Street on their labels.

I actually brought a bottle of this to Midleton to see what they thought, but they didn't know too much about it. I kind of forgot what they said. Maybe Zoltan, Michael or David might remember.

[msc37]

Hi Joel,

I'm new to this forum, and am a collector of antique whisk(e)y bottles. From looking at the photos of the Cork Distilleries Co bottle on eBay, it appears that the bottle was sealed with a driven cork, which generally gave way to the stopper cork about 1930. Therefore, if the bottle dates from the 1920s, could it be possible that the whiskey in the bottle was indeed distilled at North Mall? As I understand it, the North Mall production buildings and mill were destoyed by fire in 1920, but were the warehouses left intact? If so, stocks of whiskey from North Mall could have survived to be bottled even after distilling was moved over to Midleton. Just a thought!

Cheers,

Mike

[Joel1802]

Thanks for that Mike, I've had a very similar thought about North Mall. I'm not very good with seals and such yet, how will I be able to tell what is under the capsule without damaging it?

I've consulted with Mr. Google, and checked to see what is said in both McGuire's Irish Whiskey and Townsend's The Lost Distilleries of Ireland.

It seems that it was the production side of the distillery that was destroyed. The warehouses, at least in part, Survived. I suppose that means North Mall stock may have been used for up to +/-ten years after the fire (depending on many factors).

http://www.potstill.de/pictures/northmall3.jpg

[Joel1802]

I've also found that, according to Mr. Google, The Institute of Hygiene in London awarded certificates to Jack Daniels in 1915 and White Horse in 1930.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Unfortunately you can not tell by the picture whether it is a driven cork or a cork top as the picture is cropped right at that point.

I would be careful about the fact it mentioned both North Mall and Midleton distilleries. The main warehouses and bottling plant were not directly attached to the Distillery. So once the distillery burned down a decision was made to transfer all production to Midleton. However there is no hard evidence as to whether the bottling plant moved or stayed. So if a presence was maintained in the North Mall even though no distilling the label can be totally misleading.

However the bottling plant does not come into the equation either as if you look at the label ..

The label also says bottled by M O Sullivan and the bit under that I can't read but I presume is a town name or something which would make me to believe that this was bottled independently and not a distillery bottled version. Note: This happened in Ireland well into the 1960's. It also would not surprise me that they kept the North Mall name going for many years after as it would have been good for business especially when selling Whiskey in Cork city and other areas of cork which may have had a preference to North Mall rather than Midleton. However these types of labels never changed much for decades so could easily be earlier.

Then the actual bottle is hard to date and it is not an old, old bottle. The glass is nicely formed and there are no inclusions so it would not surprise me if this later. If you look here this Jameson if from the 1910-1919 period. The bottle itself is moulded but the glass is not totally perfect and slightly tinted but the intent was to make it clear. The glass bottle in the Cork one is pretty much perfectly clear with out any imperfections. So definitely not pre early 1920's in my eyes.

Another little clue is the 7yo age statement. This was very popular as an old expression in the 50's and 60's before the dropped the age statement and then to the blend. But I would not base a decision on that alone.

However taking all this into account it would not surprise me if this is only from the 1950's or 1960's but could easily be earlier but not sure I would still put it any way near 1930's. Possibly late 30's - 40's but not totally convinced and my guess would still be 50's to 60's. However this is the fun of it all the search and trying to nail it down and if anybody else has an idea please share.

When did that London Hygene certificate company operate till, that could be an interesting link.

But with standing where it dates from it probably will be the of similar value.

[Joel1802]

Another odd thing is that shipped in a wooden case marked Cork distilleries Co with the flyer, would it have this if actually bottled elsewhere, or was it in reality bottled by Cork Distilleries for O'Sullivan? The bottom of the bottle says Cork Distilleries Co. I share your scepticism of the North Mall statement. At this point I don't think I can take it any further until I have it in hand. I don't know what dates the Hygiene Institute operated from, I looked but couldn't find anything. Though that sort of statement seems to have been more in fashion before the '39-'45 war.

$(KGrHqNHJE4FBknJQ7bMBQfI!Vr3vg~~60_35.jpg (19.23 KiB) Viewed 4112 times

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Still hard to say even with that picture. But looking at that, yes it could possibly be a driven cork. So you may well be in luck. Definitely try and track down more info on the Hygiene company as that could be a good lead. And yes it is strange that an independent bottler would crate their stuff unless they were a bigger affair (i.e. not a local supplier) and they were into exporting the stuff.

It would be great if you could contact the seller and get picture of the crate and that hygiene bill. Would love to see them if you can get them up on here.

This can be the really interesting side of Irish Whiskey, trying to track down the history of a bottle. Keep us informed as we all like to know as it is all about improving our knowledge base in general.

[Joel1802]

I have pictures of some of those things, but am having trouble extracting them from the ebay message. The box is a wooden crate that was partitioned to store the bottles upright. The side was branded Cork Distilleries Co. The flyer had a red jacketed huntsman on horse back on the cover. This is one of the things that helped get me into Irish whisky. There's no great mysteries in the Scotch world like this. Right now I have two bottles I'm "investigating," and it's great fun. Almost as much fun as drinking. More to follow...

[TheWhiskeyBro]

Hi Joel,

That flyer rings a bell, I have a bottle of Paddy 10yo which comes in a cardboard carton, and guess what the advert on the box is, a huntsman in a red jacket!
I'm pretty sure the Paddy 10 yo I have is 1950s.

[Joel1802]

That's be great if it cracks it. I shall try and find a way to put the picture up when I get home.

[Joel1802]

Hi Joel,

That flyer rings a bell, I have a bottle of Paddy 10yo which comes in a cardboard carton, and guess what the advert on the box is, a huntsman in a red jacket!
I'm pretty sure the Paddy 10 yo I have is 1950s.

Could you post a pic?

[Raven]

This is where the recently established archives in Midleton will be able
to assist if not now in the future. The original contract between the said 'Paddy
O'Flaherty' the famous salesman has already turned up down there and much
more will follow. There will no doubt somewhere there rest a ledger showing the
sales to O'Sullivan in Easkey, Co. Sligo ( which I would have thought been a bit far
North for Cork product ). I always had the idea that the vast majority of Cork
Distilleries product was sold under the 'Paddy' label afterwards.

I remember in the EastCork area where I live hearing old timers in the mid 1980's
remembering the visits of Paddy O'Flaherty and if one was lucky enough to be there
at the time being given a drop of 'Paddy' athis direction

[Joel1802]

This is where the recently established archives in Midleton will be able
to assist if not now in the future. The original contract between the said 'Paddy
O'Flaherty' the famous salesman has already turned up down there and much
more will follow. There will no doubt somewhere there rest a ledger showing the
sales to O'Sullivan in Easkey, Co. Sligo ( which I would have thought been a bit far
North for Cork product ). I always had the idea that the vast majority of Cork
Distilleries product was sold under the 'Paddy' label afterwards.

I remember in the EastCork area where I live hearing old timers in the mid 1980's
remembering the visits of Paddy O'Flaherty and if one was lucky enough to be there
at the time being given a drop of 'Paddy' athis direction

I'll have to fire off a query to them, any idea of a contact there. I was especially interested in this bottling because it isn't Paddy and it says it was bottled by an outside agency. I figured if I'm lucky it'll be very old, and if not it's still very interesting for me! What is the state of the archives? Maybe I should ask if they ever sold anything other than Bow St to Averys?

[Raven]

Stephen Franck I understand is the Archivist but as he is only in situ since
approx. March I expect he is still in paper up to his neck. The Old Distiller's Cottage
will be the Archives there. Extension is presently being added to the rear of building
which in boundary terms lies between the site of the Old Distillery backing onto the
New Distillery which is a vast building site at present ( part of it anyway).

Very good article in last week's Sunday Times Business section on the new Irish distillers
CEO Anna Malmhake from Sweden which gives some of this information.

[Joel1802]

As promised here are shots of the box and the cover of the flyer:

[TheWhiskeyBro]

That appears to be the same image, don't have a picture to upload at present...

[JohnM]

The bottles I have are cast in two parts, so there's a seam up the side.

Also, at the bottom, it says "This label is issued only by Cork Distilleries Co Ltd."

Not sure if this adds anything.

[Joel1802]

It does add something, but what I'm not sure. I've taken that description to Mr. Google and in return I've got a very wide range of dates. It seems that that technique was used from 1920ish to the 1960s.

[Joel1802]

I have also found another referance to the Institute of hygene on the back lable of a bottle of Dunville's VR Picture available on this forum http://forum.irishwhiskeysociety.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1201

[Joel1802]

I have been formally introduced to the bottle.

-The capsule is very heavy. I don't know if it is lead, but very thick and the paint is flaking off in places.
-It seems to be hiding a driven cork, but it isn't easy to tell because of the thickness of the capsule.
-From what I know of bottles it could be any where from the 20s to the 60s. There is no grove for stabilising the bottle on the line. Thick seam divides the bottle in half. Some flaws and bubbles.
-large label (middle/main) has tiny writing in bottom left that says Purcell Cork.
-Base of bottle has ring of groves around the edge and says:

6
Cork
Distilleries
Ireland
66

Could that be 1966?

Clues are all over the map on this. Was whisky still shipped in wooden crates in the 60s?

[Joel1802]

Pucells seems to have had a long history. I don't have a precise end date (don't seem to be trading now according to Mr. Google) but I have found a date as late as 1964 after a quick search.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Hi Joel, any chance you could do some of your own pics for us.

This bottle is quite a curios one.

The driven cork and capsule may lead us to believe it is old, even the usage of the wooden box.
Inclusions (air bubbles) in the bottle would also be a possible pointer to an earlier bottle.
But then the imprints in the base mean a mass manufactured bottle which is a cdc own bottle.

And the box says Distilled and Bottled by CDC yet an independent label states Bottled by M O'Sullivan.

All very confusing ...

What does strike me about the original picture you posted is that the main label seems much cleaner so possibly newer than the bottom label "Seven years Old" or is it just the light and the angle.

I wonder is this a case of recycling the bottle???

A nice puzzle to have though as I think there is a good chance that it is a Pot Still