Greenspot vs Redbreast barrel choice

[Fionnán]

I know it varies from batch to batch as they're aiming for the recreation of a specific taste etc, but does anyone have any hard information on the difference between sherry/bourbon barrel percentages for green spot and redbreast (and the new SPS bottles if you have them)... I recently stumbled, via David's website onto the IDL quote about the most recent batch of Redbreast 12 that its 77% 1st fill sherry and 23% 1st fill sherry. Ages ago on an earlier thread on this forum i remember reading that Greenspot is supposed to be 75% bourbon barrel and 25% sherry. Is that not true or are they really that close? I know a lot of the difference stems from the style of the pot-still-make itself (mod 1-4, trad, etc) but given Redbreast's distinct sherry influence in comparison to GS, i'd assume the margin is more than 2%... Does anyone know if greenspot is all first fill barrels too or what the story is? As IDL are so secretive about any mathematical information, it'd be nice to have a thread for clearer information on these types of questions

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Can't recall off the top of my head but you have to remember age too. There is a big difference. GS the last I heard was around the 6-8 yo mark while obviously RB is 12 years and older which makes a huge difference.

However I agree with your assessment and I too personally think the RB has a more sherried character than the GS. I would surmise that the Sherry content in GS is possibly in single figures now or maybe a percentage of the sherry content is second fill but that is pure guess work on my half.

I don't think IDL are overly secretive about it as when you get a chance to talk to them about it they will freely tell you. I think it is more a case that they have to blend according to taste rather than ratio's.

[DavidH]

I know it varies from batch to batch as they're aiming for the recreation of a specific taste etc, but does anyone have any hard information on the difference between sherry/bourbon barrel percentages for green spot and redbreast (and the new SPS bottles if you have them)... I recently stumbled, via David's website onto the IDL quote about the most recent batch of Redbreast 12 that its 77% 1st fill bourbon and 23% 1st fill sherry. Ages ago on an earlier thread on this forum i remember reading that Greenspot is supposed to be 75% bourbon barrel and 25% sherry. Is that not true or are they really that close?

The Green Spot recipe used to be on Mitchell's own website~:

The current Green Spot is made entirely from seven and eight year old Midleton pot still, a healthy 25% coming from sherry cask

It's a good question you are asking. I'd like to know too. One thing that I've always wondered about is when IDL recreated Green Spot down in Midleton, they carefully matched the old and new Green Spots. But the old Green Spot was all-sherry so how close could the new one have been, really?

[DavidH]

I don't think IDL are overly secretive about it as when you get a chance to talk to them about it they will freely tell you.

It depends who you are talking to, perhaps. I asked the Redbreast question directly to Barry Crockett in one of our tastings and he wouldn't answer it (maybe you were there?). It was the same at the WhiskyLive masterclass last year. He used phrasing along the lines of "um... a certain proportion of sherry".

The 77%/23% figure for Redbreast comes form the PPS launch in Midleton. You were there, right? Can you confirm it?

[IainB]

I don't think you can draw any conclusions on the character purely based on the % sherry. IWC has already discussed the issue of age but there are other factors to consider. You could, in theory, have 2 SPS whiskeys of the same age and same % sherry influence but with completely different characters arising from the type of sherry barrell used. By type I mean issues such as the barrell size, type of sherry and whether a first or second fill sherry is used. The last of these would have a huge influence on the level of sherry infulence on the whiskey.

There are other considerations for SPS whiskey such as the malted/unmalted mix, the "cut" etc. but these are probably not relevant in the context of a question on sherry influence.

[DavidH]

There are other considerations for SPS whiskey such as the malted/unmalted mix, the "cut" etc. but these are probably not relevant in the context of a question on sherry influence.

Green Spot uses a heavier pot still than Redbreast. It might mask the sherry influence more than Redbreast. I don't know, just putting it out there.

Midleton's sherry casks are all the same size, all Oloroso and all seasoned for two years so, of all the variables you mentioned, it's the first/second fill that would make the most difference here. They don't do 3rd sherry fills (at least it doesn't count as a sherry fill then).

[Fionnán]

Very good points Iain-- although, as David pointed out, to the best of my knowledge IDL's sherry casks are all Olorosso and unanimously sized (although, as they at least use port casks for some of the Jameson RVR destined pot still make, i'm fully prepared to be corrected on this) As for 1st fill vs 2nd fill casks, i read in the same source that Redbreast is all first fill casks. Does anyone happen to know the cask types for Greenspot? That could go a long way to clarifying this.

At the very least, i was simply shocked that this particular variable was so much smaller than i'd imagined and its a testament to not only the effects of age but also the differing effects of sherry on heavier vs lighter styles of pot still make. Does anyone know the chemistry behind the different IDL pot still makes (light, mod 1-4, trad, etc)? Do they take wider cuts or change the malted/unmalted ratio or both or what? I always thought they used a standard ratio of about 60/40 but i'm fully prepaired to be corrected on that point too.

If the rumors about the possibility of an expanded "spot" range come to fruition, an older version of the heavier GS make would go a long ways to explaining some of these differences more clearly...

[Fionnán]

god i wish i could be there tomorrow night...

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Hi Fionnán, it is quite complicated in one sense but very easy for them to do.

They have at their disposal the possibly of making a myriad of styles of Single Pot Still.

Firstly let me say any numbers I spout out here is just hypothetical so no credence should be taken in them as gospel.

If you first take the mash content this can be changed so say in various ways.

60 Malt 40 Unmalted / 50:50 / and 40 Malt 60 Unmalted. Whether they do these pricisely I have no idea but I would imagine they do 2 or 3 different mixes.

Next you have your cut and I think this is where a lot of the character is got. A narrow cut may be a more refined smooth whiskey a long cut would be a heavier whiskey with inclusions of more esters etc. This style you would see used in Powers Johns lane. So that gives you the Mod Pot variants etc. So hypothetically if we say they have 6 of those, which I don't think is an exaggeration.

We then have the opportunity of doing 3 x 6 different variations so we are up to 18.

Then have first fill and second fill in the main casks of Bourbon and sherry so another 4 different variations of 18 above can be split out of all that. So that is 18x 4 = 72 different variations.

And finally the mind boggling ratios they can use from that above to create different profiles. Remeber John's Lane is a heavier than usual SPS but still they only use a percentage of the Heavy pot still in making it.

Now I not saying that they use that many but it is very easy to see how they can easily do it.

Don't know if that made sense but hopefully gives you an incite as to what they do and I think because of that they don't talk openly to groups about it as it just confuses people but in a one on one or small groups they love talking about it.

[DavidH]

god i wish i could be there tomorrow night...

I don't really expect to find out the answers to these questions tomorrow since we won't be hearing from any IDL production guys. It's more of a Mitchell's evening. But you never know...

[IainB]

There are other considerations for SPS whiskey such as the malted/unmalted mix, the "cut" etc. but these are probably not relevant in the context of a question on sherry influence.

Green Spot uses a heavier pot still than Redbreast. It might mask the sherry influence more than Redbreast. I don't know, just putting it out there.

Midleton's sherry casks are all the same size, all Oloroso and all seasoned for two years so, of all the variables you mentioned, it's the first/second fill that would make the most difference here. They don't do 3rd sherry fills (at least it doesn't count as a sherry fill then).

I'd heard they were all Oloroso alright but the main throust of what I was saying was that 1st fill vs 2nd fill vs a mix of both could have a huge impact on the sherry influence.

And the Yellow spot, which I've heard is a 12yo, will certainly be of interest.

[Fionnán]

from the same source:

"Green Spot has great potential for rapid growth now that it has Pernod’s full marketing and distribution muscle behind it. Given its relative youth (we were told that the average cask age has been narrowed to 8-9 years from 7-10yo previously)..."

[DublinGus]

I would love if their was a blue spot around 7 years old for 30 euro(It will never happen) which most bars/retailers would probably stock, what will the yellow spot retail for 80 euro? Will the yellow be more delicate?

[TheWhiskeyBro]

god i wish i could be there tomorrow night...

I don't really expect to find out the answers to these questions tomorrow since we won't be hearing from any IDL production guys. It's more of a Mitchell's evening. But you never know...

Without giving anything away I can assure those who attend that some of your questions on Greenspot will be answered and some of the mysteries of Greenspot will remain.

[mawhinney]

Notes from the whiskey tasting session given by Barry Walsh, and organised by CWS, on 9 Oct 2003. 3 whiskeys used in Redbreast: 1. 13 year old from a bourbon cask-oily, spicy, vanilla, toasted wood. 2. 14 year old from a sherry cask - Oloroso sherry, which can drown the whiskey taste, but this is only a building block for the Redbreast. 3. 12 year old from a third-fill cask (which brings bourbon+Irish whiskey+wood) but less wood influence than1. Honeyed and sweeter than 1. In the vatting 2. makes up 25%of the final Redbreast: 75% from the other two. Blending done at 63%, and then watered to 40%. Then(2003): 5 to 6,000 cases of Redbreast per annum. Enjoy the Greenspot tomorrow!

[DavidH]

Thanks for the detail, Ken! I've heard about that session but I wasn't clued in to the whiskey scene in 2003 so I missed it myself. I'm so glad to find out that someone made notes. And you have confirmed the sherry proportion in Redbreast at about a quarter.

[JohnM]

Notes from the whiskey tasting session given by Barry Walsh, and organised by CWS, on 9 Oct 2003. 3 whiskeys used in Redbreast: 1. 13 year old from a bourbon cask-oily, spicy, vanilla, toasted wood. 2. 14 year old from a sherry cask - Oloroso sherry, which can drown the whiskey taste, but this is only a building block for the Redbreast. 3. 12 year old from a third-fill cask (which brings bourbon+Irish whiskey+wood) but less wood influence than1. Honeyed and sweeter than 1. In the vatting 2. makes up 25%of the final Redbreast: 75% from the other two. Blending done at 63%, and then watered to 40%. Then(2003): 5 to 6,000 cases of Redbreast per annum. Enjoy the Greenspot tomorrow!

That was a great tasting. I should have taken notes too, as in my head there were two sherry casks, but you're notes are right. The sherry cask was very heavy, sherry-wise.

[Fionnán]

wait, does anyone still have any old redbreast from that far back? Unless there's some mistake, that means they've since ceased using second fill casks (i know they change it all the time to imitate a desired taste, but again, its an interesting perspective to see what those changes actually are)

so, from the Whisky Exchange write-up, it says:

"We were told that this batch of Redbreast 12yo was from 77% first fill bourbon and 23% first fill sherry casks. That would seem to be the perfect ratio for this whiskey. A masterpiece."

source:
http://blog.thewhiskyexchange.com/2011/ ... keys-pt-1/

but the above post from mawhinney about they're very detailed process for the circa 2003 redbreast very clearly stipulates that a lot of third-fill casks were used. When/Did they stop using third fill casks at Midleton. And of course, there's no information from TWE report about how old various casks employed were.