Substitute for "dram"

[DavidH]

I was watching Bargain Hunt today (it's very educational ) and there was a very ornate "Indian silver" double spirit measure. By which I mean it had a single measure at one end and, if you turned it over, it had a double measure at the other end. A nice thing.

Anyway, the antiques expert called the measure a "chota peg", which was the terminology of the Raj. I've looked this up and it means "small drink" in Hindi. The opposite is a "burra peg" or "big drink", an example of which might be a G&T.

The word "peg" is in my dictionary as a measure of spirits. Not sure if it derives from the above or if it's coincidence. Here's a quote from Lord Jim, by Joseph Conrad:

I've never been the worse for liquor in my life; the stuff ain't made yet that would make me drunk. I could drink fire against your whiskey peg for peg, b'gosh, and keep as cool as a cucumber.

Since the Scots seem to own the word "dram" for a shot of whiskey, and since they don't need any more advertising from us, I'm proposing we revive the word "peg". There is something Irish-sounding about it anyway and it comes across less Bertie Woosterish than "tot".

Right, I'm off for a peg of Black Bush. Yup, rolls off the tongue, it does.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

The joys of working from home

I too saw it today

The expert mentioned peg first as the smaller measure or regular measure and chota peg as the double.

So you want to resurect peg ... does that word not give you night mares from you schooling days i.e leaving cert Irish ... Peig

[DavidH]

The expert mentioned peg first as the smaller measure or regular measure and chota peg as the double.

He did say that, but according to my research on the internet he is wrong (if you can trust the internet; I'd like to check this in the OED).

So you want to resurect peg ... does that word not give you night mares from you schooling days i.e leaving cert Irish ... Peig

I seem to have been in the only class in Ireland that didn't read Peig. I can see the "craic" brigade hijacking "peg" and Irish-izing it as "peig" though

[jcskinner]

No need to be borrowing terms from the British Raj. I'd prefer a Scots term to that.
Of course, there are more than a few phrases used to describe a dram in Ireland, only some of which are in Irish. My own favourite term is 'half-un', but one often hears older men order a 'ball of malt', meaning an Irish blend, not a single malt.

[IainB]

If we're going to go for the Peig thing maybe we should customise it a bit more.

Say we start with a Peig for a triple measure.

Then a double measure we could call a Peigeen.

A single measure we could call a Peigeen Beag. Then when we're drinking whiskey we can say we just had a few Peigeen Beags and feel we really didn't have that much at all.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

A drop of the cratur (sic) is one my grandfather always used

[JohnM]

No need to be borrowing terms from the British Raj. I'd prefer a Scots term to that.
Of course, there are more than a few phrases used to describe a dram in Ireland, only some of which are in Irish. My own favourite term is 'half-un', but one often hears older men order a 'ball of malt', meaning an Irish blend, not a single malt.

A pint of stout and a ball of malt, is what Flan O'Brien's The Brother used to order.

What about "whiskey"? For example: "I had a 'whiskey' list night. It tasted nice."

Or, what about the traditional vessel used to contain a whiskey - a glass?

[IainB]

No need to be borrowing terms from the British Raj. I'd prefer a Scots term to that.
Of course, there are more than a few phrases used to describe a dram in Ireland, only some of which are in Irish. My own favourite term is 'half-un', but one often hears older men order a 'ball of malt', meaning an Irish blend, not a single malt.

A pint of stout and a ball of malt, is what Flan O'Brien's The Brother used to order.

What about "whiskey"? For example: "I had a 'whiskey' list night. It tasted nice."

Or, what about the traditional vessel used to contain a whiskey - a glass?

Don't be ridiculous John. Who would use such strange expressions?

[JohnM]

I can see us getting blank looks from barmen as we order a whiskey.

I do like the peg idea, but we might attract the attention of travelling peg salesmen.

[IainB]

MMM, that's always a problem. But if they turn up at my door I'll send Brian out to beat them up.

[jcskinner]

A drop of the cratur (sic) is one my grandfather always used

Always thought 'the crathur' referred specifically to, ahem, unparliamentary whiskey.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

I like the word dram but would ever only use it in the written context. Could not see myself asking a bar man for a Dram of Jameson or a dram of lagavulin. Just the simple name and expression is enough to be blurting out in public.

In all fairness I reckon this is more a written expression anyway. I've never heard of anybody ever ordering a dram even in Scotland, nor whisk(e)y for that matter which seems to be a term more used in Films ... I can see it now, John Wayne walks into the bar and looks at the bar tender and simply says 'Whiskey' . I would imagine Dram is only used by old men who drink the same brand day in day out in their local. Just like going down to your own local and asking for a Pint and the bar man knows what you want.

So are we going to start pegging whiskey around the place

[DavidH]

but one often hears older men order a 'ball of malt', meaning an Irish blend, not a single malt.

A blend or any Irish? The expression was current in the days when PPS was the norm.

Worth reviving, I'd say.

By the way, if you object to words derived from Hindi you'll have to ditch your pyjamas and abolish bungalows too

[DavidH]

What about "whiskey"? For example: "I had a 'whiskey' list night. It tasted nice."

Or, what about the traditional vessel used to contain a whiskey - a glass?

A fair question. Look at the thread titles on this forum. A whole bunch of drams in there. Take "The Dram Room", for example. "The Whiskey Room" would be dull. "The Peg Room"... well, we'll have to wait until that term gains more currency. "The Ball (of Malt) Room"... ?

[varizoltan]

good point Dave, time to change them for whiskey i'd say

[cathach]

I'd have to say I'm very fond of the term 'ball of malt', and I've always used. I don't know where I picked it up though, it's quite possible that I've started to internalise Flann O'Brien's characters (I'm sure he'd have that anyway).

A neighbour of mine says he'll take a 'dreether' of whiskey, as for the term 'a glass', beware!! I went into the Long Hall once in Dublin and asked for a glass of Greenspot, yer man looked me up and down and said ''a glass is a double, what you want is a half''. Tough customer, needless to say he got his way.

[jcskinner]

Hence a 'half-un'!

[IainB]

I'd have to say I'm very fond of the term 'ball of malt', and I've always used. I don't know where I picked it up though, it's quite possible that I've started to internalise Flann O'Brien's characters (I'm sure he'd have that anyway).

A neighbour of mine says he'll take a 'dreether' of whiskey, as for the term 'a glass', beware!! I went into the Long Hall once in Dublin and asked for a glass of Greenspot, yer man looked me up and down and said ''a glass is a double, what you want is a half''. Tough customer, needless to say he got his way.

So did you have the glass or the half? Or both?

[DavidH]

So is a half-un half a glass? And does this mean a double was once the standard measure? Sounds like another tradition worth reviving.

[jcskinner]

My ould lad's version of the etymology (and he's a notorious storyteller, so I caution a health warning to all that follows) is that when the Weights and Measures people reduced the standard measure in the middle of the last century, people were so irked they reckoned a new measure was only half of an old one (which was an exaggeration to say the least.)
Hence, to express disgust, they referred to the new measures as half-uns.
That's very likely not to be true though, and he's vague on exactly which change in measurement is relevant, as there were more than a few.
What is sure is that men of a certain venerability do tend to refer to a standard Irish pub measurement (north or south) as a half-un to this day.

[IainB]

My ould lad's version of the etymology (and he's a notorious storyteller, so I caution a health warning to all that follows) is that when the Weights and Measures people reduced the standard measure in the middle of the last century, people were so irked they reckoned a new measure was only half of an old one (which was an exaggeration to say the least.)
Hence, to express disgust, they referred to the new measures as half-uns.
That's very likely not to be true though, and he's vague on exactly which change in measurement is relevant, as there were more than a few.
What is sure is that men of a certain venerability do tend to refer to a standard Irish pub measurement (north or south) as a half-un to this day.

So I guess the standard English measure must be about a third-un so.

[cathach]

So did you have the glass or the half? Or both?

I took what I got, this character looked like Edward G. Robinson!: http://www.altfg.com/Stars/actorsr/robi ... ward-g.jpg
Twas a half-un alright.

jc skinner, your pater familias isn't pulling your leg at all by the sounds of it. I don't know when the change was either but the current 700ml-type bottle was called a 'ten-glass' bottle, it's also called that in a few books. Also the miniatures or babies of Powers, Jameson and Paddy are all still available at 71ml (I don't think they even do a 50ml size). The current pub measure marked on optics is 35.5ml exactly half that.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

That would corroborate the glass theory being a double.

By the way Powers is accredited to inventing the worlds first miniature.

The Baby power was the very first miniature and was designed for the lady of the house, believe it or not, to tuck away under her shawl from the 'hatch' or pub back door or what ever and take home unnoticed so she could have her nip too. Women in pubs is only a relatively new thing and was frowned upon back in the day. Or hubby would take her home one after he got sozzeled in the pub to ease his conscience .

I'm not sure if the measures changed as such but possibly halved to give people the option of having a small one instead of having to have a glass. It was basically giving the drinker more options or maybe government interference, depending which way you looked at it. There could of been various factors to influence this too. The Temperance movement was very much active in Ireland as in the states as alcohol abuse etc was wide spread. Lessened work output or absenteeism from work due to alcohol related symptoms. Men folk abandoning their women folk for the pub and spending too much on drink while the family suffered. The social consequences were fairly obvious to see and I suppose the government had to be seen to do some thing therefore bringing in fixed measures for pubs to serve.

This is all hypothesis of course but the government regulated fixed measure had to come in at some stage so it would be interesting if any knows when?

35.5ml exactly equates to a quarter gill or modern day single measure and 71ml is half a gill now known as a double, a large one or previously a glass.

A very interesting subject and could do with a definitive answer. Anybody care to research

[Jim Murray]

Great thread.

I have taken a few minutes out from writing my latest Whiskey Bible to give my tongue a chance to recover from yet another sulphured whisky. Not Irish, you'll be relieved to know.

In 20 years of writing about Irish, I have always had a problem finding a term other than "dram". I remember asking various blenders/distillery managers/sages over the years and they, too, had this exact problem. However, like me, they sometimes just referred to it as an "Irish", as opposed to the more Scottish "dram".

As for a "Peg": this was a term used for both Scotch and Irish. By the 1890s a special silver drinking vessel by this name was around. Before then, I understand, it was a a drinking vessel made often of wood. The inside of the vessel would have a loose peg to show the exact measure. There may have been holes above the first peg for it to be moved, so they could order "two pegs of" or "three". Sometimes, the pegs were small and solid, like wooden warts, and you filled up to each mark. I have encountered antique dealers who claim to have had these from time to time, usually with the original pegs missing, but never been lucky enough to track one down for my own collection. For the record, the cover of my 1999 book The Art of Whisky actually shows a poster of an Irishman and Scotsman together drinking a Peg of Whisky.

It may or may not be true regarding the Baby Power's being for ladies; certainly, that story has long done the rounds. However, John Power & Son was ahead of its time from a marketing perspective in many ways. And they were not so daft as to not know the virtue of being able to sell its whiskey in smaller measures when times were tight and a family couldn't afford a full bottle. Which was most of the time for many families..

Right. Back to the Bible. My tongue is, after several hours, restored and a Locke's Grand Crew 9-year-old Single Malt awaits....

[JohnM]

Great to have you on board, Mr Murray. And thanks for all you've done for Irish whiskey over the years...