Midleton Press Event

[DavidH]

I can't imagine France's market entry rules to be less stringent than Ireland's. In fact, the EU as whole has almost the same trade terms - save some differing label & language descriptors.

Not less stringent, but perhaps more streamlined? The EU has aligned trade in most areas but alcohol seems to be one of those reserved areas of national competence - labelling requirements, rates of duty, who may sell it, when, below cost or not... it's all quite specific to the country.

And it's not like the product appeared out of thin air; years of planning would have gone into the development and launch of this.

True, but I assume you can only submit your labels for approval just before release when you know, for example, the ABV.

As a Society we should send some form of correspondance to the distillery highlighting how Irish consumers are being put to the back of the line. It shouldn't be all one-way communication in terms of them simply showing up whenever they want to sell us something new. Loyalty is a two way street!!

I'd quite like to agitate politically for convergence of alcohol packaging rules. Consistent labelling of caramel, for example. And a shift to 750ml bottles for compatibility with the US.

For individual producers, we can also communicate with our wallets. Personally I think if people in this country buy the whiskey at the marked up price then it was the right price to charge. It puts plenty of whiskey out of my reach but that's my hard luck. Whiskey is a luxury, not a human right

[Stephen]

Well I don't know if you read anything into it but the page has been pulled from La Maison du Whisky .... so maybe IDL have rapped them on the knuckles for jumping the gun.

[John]

labelling requirements, rates of duty, who may sell it, when, below cost or not... it's all quite specific to the country.

True David, but I'm sure that none of these requirements would have produced any last minute surprises comming up to a product launch that would have caused a delay in multiple markets - excluding France??

True, but I assume you can only submit your labels for approval just before release when you know, for example, the ABV.

Label approval is something that would have been submitted a good deal in advance of a launch, the generation of the artwork coupled with the alco-specific information would have been agreed well in advance because as you point out yourself, the ABV, among other factors, will influence the price floor. The price in turn will have been set a good while ago in order to determine marketability - therefore it follows that they must have known what strength they were going to bottle at.

I'd quite like to agitate politically for convergence of alcohol packaging rules. Consistent labelling of caramel, for example. And a shift to 750ml bottles for compatibility with the US.

Agreed; personally I think we are taking a bit of a backseat on many pressing issues that should be brought to the fore in an effort to strengthen the industry and improve on how it interacts with Irish consumers.

Whiskey is a luxury, not a human right

I'm sure you're not trying to be juvenile there David, I doubt anyone believes that whiskey or any alcohol should be available as a human right?

J.

[John]

Well noticed Stephen - on the ball Though unfortunately because the horse has well and truly bolted; the 'stable door' is now an irrelevance.
I wonder have any other outlets jumped the gun?
J.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

There is obviously major issues getting this to market. They had wished it to be available when the Power's John's lane was released. However the story I've heard is that the Whiskey is bottled ready to go but the Box it not. It is not a regular Midleton box and has a bit of class and quality to it, about the weight of the Dungourney box. However it has metal disc inserts in the hinged lid. It has internal fixings to keep the bottle in place which is all in wood and also it's own little plinth all be it simple but another addition to. I would imagine it is a fairly expensive box to create in comparison to regular Midleton Boxes and definitely more complex than the straight forward Dungourney Box.



If you looked when it was up on the MduW site you would of noticed even their picture did not have the box. IDL will probably have no control over the availability of packaging and are reliant on a 3rd party. So if they were assured delivery and did not get it what can they do. Sure they can go to another vendor but that puts them back to square one and even further delay is inevitable.

Remember this is working against IDL also ... they had a big event for this and now as the time drifts away the initial impact is diminishing also.

This whiskey has waited decades to be released I'm sure we all can wait a month or 2

[John]

Hi Adrian, the main issues here do not relate to the complexity of the packaging. Moreso to the fact that foreign markets appear to have secured supply before the home market; and, that the RRP was unreasonably higher than was initially indicated. In that vane, most people may be waiting more than a month or two if it comes in at the price quoted on LMdW!

[Luke Gough]

There is obviously major issues getting this to market. They had wished it to be available when the Power's John's lane was released. However the story I've heard is that the Whiskey is bottled ready to go but the Box it not. It is not a regular Midleton box and has a bit of class and quality to it, about the weight of the Dungourney box. However it has metal disc inserts in the hinged lid. It has internal fixings to keep the bottle in place which is all in wood and also it's own little plinth all be it simple but another addition to. I would imagine it is a fairly expensive box to create in comparison to regular Midleton Boxes and definitely more complex than the straight forward Dungourney Box.

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If you looked when it was up on the MduW site you would of noticed even their picture did not have the box. IDL will probably have no control over the availability of packaging and are reliant on a 3rd party. So if they were assured delivery and did not get it what can they do. Sure they can go to another vendor but that puts them back to square one and even further delay is inevitable.

Remember this is working against IDL also ... they had a big event for this and now as the time drifts away the initial impact is diminishing also.

This whiskey has waited decades to be released I'm sure we all can wait a month or 2

Is that box real?! Sweet Lantern O' Jaysus!

How much of the (putative) €160.00 price tag is made up by the box?!

Heavy cardboard or a tube will do me and most drammers here!

[DavidH]

Whiskey is a luxury, not a human right

I'm sure you're not trying to be juvenile there David, I doubt anyone believes that whiskey or any alcohol should be available as a human right?

I don't think so but demanding that a producer sells a product for less than they can get in the market or via particular channels at a particular time is implying a right, like a right to cheap medicine, say. If whiskey is not a necessity and both sides can freely enter the transaction or not then I can't see what the argument is for anyone telling IDL what to do. They can charge €10,000 a bottle and it's still not wrong, it's just business.

[DublinGus]

Just because a web site puts a picture of the bottle on a page, does not mean they have the bottle in stock. I was in bow lane at the weekend the women
in the shop said it should be out this week and said she would give me a ring when its in stock.

[DavidH]

Just because a web site puts a picture of the bottle on a page, does not mean they have the bottle in stock.

Right under the picture, however, were the words in large type "En stock".

[DavidH]

The new Irish Pot Still website has gone from "going live" on Mon 27th to going live "very soon".

[John]

I don't think so but demanding that a producer sells a product for less than they can get in the market or via particular channels at a particular time is implying a right, like a right to cheap medicine, say. If whiskey is not a necessity and both sides can freely enter the transaction or not then I can't see what the argument is for anyone telling IDL what to do. They can charge €10,000 a bottle and it's still not wrong, it's just business.

Terrible echoes of the 'Celtic Tiger' there Dave I don't believe it is standing up for one's Rights, when in business, to ask / demand or negotiate with a supplier for lower prices - that's just good business. IDL have had the monopoly on Pot Still for years and have acted as any monopolist would - they set the price they want, up it as they see fit and the Irish consumer (usually) pays the price, though as you point out they may enter into the transaction freely.

[DavidH]

I agree with you there: if you are in the market for whiskey and you don't like the price then complain, negotiate, take your business elsewhere. As a seller, I'd be interested in monitoring consumer sentiment on forums like this too, and I'd try to keep people happy.

It's very useful for us to draw comparisons between prices in this country and that. I could even see a role for the society here in publishing such tables in the consumer interest. I'd just hold back from writing to the distillers themselves to complain about their business practices.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Hi Adrian, the main issues here do not relate to the complexity of the packaging. Moreso to the fact that foreign markets appear to have secured supply before the home market; and, that the RRP was unreasonably higher than was initially indicated. In that vane, most people may be waiting more than a month or two if it comes in at the price quoted on LMdW!

In relation to Foreign Markets getting it first this is actually a very common practice and happens all the time and with many brands including scotch. Basically it is a little show of recognition for other markets. I also have a feeling that LaMduW is a major distributor for IDL and as such would get the stock well in advance. The distributor here has it too but if it's waiting for the Packaging it will hold off ... god knows what is going on and I do agree it is frustrating but this was supposed to be launched in one go possibly all over Europe with the poor US having to wait as usual.

However are you not forgetting that it was officially launched here. Not that that's any consulation for you as you've yet to get your hands on it

For example the Jameson Select Reserve (Small batch) which is not due to be released in Ireland until 2012 at the earliest (No concrete date by the way) was launched in South Africa at the end of last year. And cooley Launched one of their new Connemara's in either London or Europe first, lately.

In relation to RRP, do we know what the price will be? I have not heard? I know there was rumours of it being around €160 but I always though that was a bit low. Remember this is part of the Midleton range ... why they would only put a €20-30 premium on a bottle in comparison to the Midleton VR of which the Legacy I believe is far superior (In taste and quality packaging) to the Midleton VR and was always a bit unbelievable to me. I don't want to be seen as defending IDL as I would dearly love to buy this regularly but that is not going to happen at the 160+ price point for me but I'm just trying to think about it logically.

However I do agree with you in principle around the pricing of whiskey in general in Ireland. As a very closed market we have been taken advantage of which is a bit unfair. However the bog standards have seen a fall off in prices with many being regularly on special. Also I was surprised to see the Midleton 2011 at €130 as at it's height Midleton was €155 so pricing is becoming more keen. But more commentary on pricing and comparisons to other markets certainly will help.

However we do need to be careful and take full facts into account. i.e. local duties and taxes which can have a major impact on bottles. However the more expensive a bottle the less of an impact duties should have on the over all price, but local VAT could.

[DublinGus]

Just because a web site puts a picture of the bottle on a page, does not mean they have the bottle in stock.

Right under the picture, however, were the words in large type "En stock".

Not being smart david but just because someone writes in stock on web site is still not 100% they have it, did anyone buy a bottle from the site? I think they just jumped the gun.

[matt]

Great talk, really enjoy the discussion, some nice view how to see things.

I think there is another part to talk about: the Midleton Legacy will be released yearly in the future right

If that is so, i wonder why the Year statement is so small and out of view

In this prise segment and for collectors there should be a individual statement similar to the Midleton VR series.

Well, the mist this release with a clear year statement but why not change the motive on the front label for each
release in the future
There is a long history behind Midleton and there are so Mani themes you can use.

Personally i hope the Motive will change in future for the Legacy brand.

[Michael Foggarty]

Just because a web site puts a picture of the bottle on a page, does not mean they have the bottle in stock.

Right under the picture, however, were the words in large type "En stock".

Not being smart david but just because someone writes in stock on web site is still not 100% they have it, did anyone buy a bottle from the site? I think they just jumped the gun.

It is no longer on LMDW website! Its common practice to list something in stock on an online bottle shop but not actually have it "instock" . It should be getting deliver to on/off trade on Monday 4th July provided the retailer/publican orders before 12 p.m. on the 1st July.

[DublinGus]

That's good to know Michael, is it going to be a yearly release? not a bad idea, how many bottles will be released?

[matt]

That's good to know Michael, is it going to be a yearly release? not a bad idea, how many bottles will be released?

On a German Whiskey site it say`s,

Power`s: 600 'Case Equivalents' (=7.700 0,7 Liter Flaschen) wurden abgefüllt. are bottled

Midleton: 6.000 Flaschen werden pro Jahr abgefüllt 6000 bottles bottled each year

[John]

It is no longer on LMDW website! Its common practice to list something in stock on an online bottle shop but not actually have it "instock" . It should be getting deliver to on/off trade on Monday 4th July provided the retailer/publican orders before 12 p.m. on the 1st July.

Hi Michael, to paraphrase an old adage - There are old Internet Retailers and there are bold Internet Retailers (who list things on their website that they haven't got to sell), but there are no Old, Bold Internet Retailers

Why on earth would that be common practice though? I'm sure consumers must very quickly get fed up of that kind of carry on? I mean, the purpose of the online facility is that you can see at a glance what is on offer and purchase without any 'debate' or undue delay. If a consumer views an item and then has to ring the vendor or worse, physically go into the store to verify that what they are saying on their website is actually the truth, then I would imagine that the whole situation would become too much of a chore and the consumer would simply go elsewhere where they can rely on the quality of the online info?

I could understand a situation where the retailer might indicate that initial forecast demand is high and as a result they were creating a 'waiting list', to facilitate a first ordered - first served system. I know that that is common practice, however, LMdW indicated that they had the bottles in stock, truth or no, it is what has sparked some of this debate!
Cheers,
J.

[Michael Foggarty]

Its common practice, because not all retailers have access to large warehouse to store goods etc, also who would want to have large quantities of whiskey around for insurance purposes. On top of that some retailers have physical shops and, he/she may have 6 brand x on the shelve, Joe Bloggs come in and buys the 6 bottles at the same time your logging on to buy a bottle, the retailer is hardly going to go to the effort of taking it off site when he/she knows it will be back instock the following day, that would result in you shopping elsewhere.

[John]

If I understand you correctly Michael, what you are saying is that some retailers (presumably the smaller ones) operating in both over-the-counter and internet commerce use some form of single stock management system? So they may have 'x' amount of stock and it feeds both physical and electronic sales? Receipe for disaster surely, how does the right hand know what the left hand is doing?

A more comprehensive system in this instance would be a dual system with stock allocations for both sales streams; electronic tallies can be augmented or reduced if necesary based on the shop sales - at least then both sets of customers would have a handle on what is available to them. Though I reckon you are talking about smaller retailers without a great deal of web-based sales demand? In that case I take your point, though I doubt LMdW fits into that category - given that they have a serious internet presence and multiple stores and which without a doubt means that they have a comprehensive demand planning system.

[Michael Foggarty]

Well got my hands on a bottle of the legacy at Dublin airport today, yes I got to touch it only because the sales guy couldn't reach it! 160 euro duty paid and 135 for Zoltan, but I won't get it until I come back from holidays.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

So the original guestimate Price was right, so we all can breath a sigh of relief ... obviously there still could be fluctuation between outlets depending on their pricing strategy but that is down to each individual outlet and not IDL's fault.

Any sign of this in Ally's or anywhere else in Ireland?

[IainB]

Ally has it.