Pot Still Ratios

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

We have been told that Midleton now only use Malted and UnMalted Barley in their Potstill whiskey. We also have been told that according to the whiskey they are making it can be anything from 60:40 to 50:50 to 40:60 or possibly anywhere in-between depending on the recipe.

We further know from historical accounts that this was not always the case and other cereals were used such oats and possibly maize may have been used? However there has always been a slight cloud over this as no one could point out and say there you go it says in such and such that bla de bla used this ratio to make their PPS.

Due to lack of concert proof People have always surmised at what the ratios were but we never seemed to come up with anything substantial.

I've been reading a short titled book called "A Philosophical and Statistical History of the Inventions and Customs of Ancient and Modern Nations in the Manufacture and use of Inebriating Liquors" by Samuel Morewood published 1838 (Phew that was a mouth full) . The section on the Irish Industry covers Irish whiskey fairly extensively. A lot of historical accounting of the ancient progression of brewing through to Distillation but I have yet to finish this sometimes meandering book. However I have come across a golden nugget of a piece of information which I thought ye all maybe interested .... (I also came across some out put figures which show Irish Whiskey output to totally dominate and dwarf Scotch output in the early 1800's... but that's another story)

In a previous chapter the author gives a decent account of Mr James Jameson's working in Marrowbone Lane and concentrates on industrial apparatus and input & output figures but nothing majorly in regard to the actual whiskey or it's make up. Next chapter is about another Distillery however un-named but obviously a big opperation too.

"In one of the large concerns in the city of Dublin, the capacity of the stills .... In one brewing period 15,290 bushels of malted and unmalted corn are mashed producing 262,747 Gallons of wash ...."

This does not really tell us anything and as the author was more interested in profit margins from cost of production I just expected a rough estimation of costs.

He did a break down of raw material costs including coal etc to give a total of expenditure.

I did not expect to find what I saw next and got mildly excited about it and opened up a new Redbreast 15yo in celebration .

Mmmmmm


Sorry back to my exciting find, at the very top of the break down.

Allowing 1/7 for malt 2184bushels at 6s 3d Per Bush
......... 3/7 for barley 6553 ....... at 3s 4.5d ... ....
......... 3/7 for oats 6553 ....... at 2s 7.5d ... ....

Which adds up to the 15,290 bushels previously mentioned.

And is obviously an indication of an exact ratio of 1 Part Malt Barley to 3 Parts Barley to 3 Parts Oats

This is the clearest indication of a ratio of a real old style PPS I have ever to come across and to be honest I cannot imagine it to be anything like we have today. However this is not to say it was an industry standard either.

We can see from the above that there was substantial costs associated to Malted barley and why the practice of mixing the mash with cheaper grain would of been enticing and thus creating the wonderful creation of PPS.

What say ye ....

Any other spots on this line let us all know ... keep up the search

[PureDrop]

Good hunting!

[DavidH]

Yes, very interesting! Clearly only a small proportion of malt is needed to catalyse the conversion of the starch in the unmalted grain. (Though we knew this from the Coffey still where 5-10% malt is used.)

What I wonder about is why the amount of malted grain is so high in the modern PPS. I'd like to see a comparative cost for industrial quantities of malted and unmalted barley. There has to be a significant difference, right? If that's the case, why use so much malted barley? It must be for taste reasons. And that makes me wonder about the taste contribution of oats (or wheat and rye, which were also used).

Was the taste so bad when they dropped the non-barley grains that they had to shift the mix significantly towards pure malt? Or was it simply a change in fashion?

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

It must be for taste reasons. And that makes me wonder about the taste contribution of oats (or wheat and rye, which were also used).

Was the taste so bad when they dropped the non-barley grains that they had to shift the mix significantly towards pure malt? Or was it simply a change in fashion?

No idea David but not necessarily a bad taste issue and remember that this technique was the recipe for the success of Irish Whiskey, actually now that I think about it I doubt it. We’re talking about some of the big boys and they could not afford to make a bad tasting product. ... again I need to fall upon where I read it but I have read that the main issue with oats was the amount of cleaning that was required after use, it gunged up everything including the potstills. Remember back in the early 1800's labor was very cheap so it may not of been a concern in relation to labor costs at that time.

[DavidH]

No idea David but not necessarily a bad taste issue and remember that this technique was the recipe for the success of Irish Whiskey, actually now that I think about it I doubt it. We’re talking about some of the big boys and they could not afford to make a bad tasting product.

I think you missed my point. When they switched to pure-barley recipes they (apparently) upped the amount of malt hugely. I am speculating that if they had not done this, that they would have ended up with a poor-tasting product. Otherwise what is the explanation for the jump in malt content?

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Ahh yea got you the wrong way around all right ... yes an interesting question. So your possibly saying that maybe regular barley does not offer the full impact on taste. It would be interesting to know how the ratios as they stand now came about. But I suppose as old imperial taxes on malt fell away and eventually it was the actual spirit that was taxed that this maybe started the drift away from ther messier oat content. Before I can across the above I was of the opinion that oats was the lesser ratio of the mix but that is obviously part of the progression away from oats all together.

[Paula MacLean]

What an interesting topic! But since there is hardly any PPS available - especially at a reasonable price - should we not be starting a campaign to get it reintroduced? ID produce loads of it (of whatever ratio) in Cork, but most of it is frittered away in blends - except for Redbreast and Green Spot. Maybe Cooley could be persuaded to make one? After all, it is what makes Irish Whiskey special.

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Totally agree with you Paula ... but I fear that we may have to wait a long long time before we ever get a new PPS to the market. If the Dingle Distillery ever gets the go ahead we may be in luck.

Lately I came across the years estimated costs of distilling for Locke's in the year 1868. And even though not a clear guide the spend breaks down as 31% spent on Malt, 48% on Barley/Wheat, 20% on oats & 1% on Barm (Which has been replaced by brewers yeast today)

Remember Malted barley was the most expensive grain back then so this is another indication that malt was used in moderation with Barley, WHeat & Oats being used as the main bulk of the mash.

[PureDrop]

Talked to an elderly gent at the weekend who recalls drawing Barley to Locke's in the '50s. I asked him if they ever handled oats or knew of any oats going into the distillery. The short answer was no.
/M

[JohnM]

Michael

I could have this completely wrong, but I think I read somewhere in the Kilbeggan museum about them using oats. I will check it out next time I'm there.

John

[PureDrop]

Bielenberg has a breakdown of costs for 1868 at Locke's, including (rounded):
Malt, 23% of costs
Barley/Wheat. 36%
Oats, 15%
Michael

[TheWhiskeyBro]

Came across this snippet...

"Irish whiskey was to be made from a mixture of 75 per cent, of barley malt, with
25 per cent, of barley, wheat, oats or rye."

Nature Magazine Volume 81 (1909)

http://books.google.ie/books?id=tppFAAA ... hiskey&lr=

and in relation to malting

"The portion intended for malting is dried down to 12% moisture and the portion selected for mashing in it's unmalted state is dried down to 6%."

Whisky by James Ross (1970)

http://books.google.ie/books?id=RoM9AAA ... sh+whiskey

[PureDrop]

Talking to Brian Quinn at the Boatmen's reunion tonight and asked him about the oats.
His figures were 60% Malt, 35% unmalted barley and 5% oats until distillation ceased in the 50s.
However, he also mentioned that at the end of the season, runs of malted barley-only were done to use up the grain. This pure malt whiskey was available within the distillery to select clients, visitors etc. but never sold as a single. It was used in Locke's blends.
Michael

[Timothy Danaher]

In E.B. McGuire's book,"Irish Whiskey", 1973, it is stated " Oats are generally part of the mixture of cereal grains."
" Before a duty was imposed on malt in 1785 distillers malted both barley and oats, but when the duty was levied it was assessed on volume and oats swell much more than barley when steeped, malting oats became prohibitive.Illicit distillers, however, frequently used oats which, it was said, produced a better flavoured whiskey."
In an 1873 excise official's report included in McGuire's book are listed elements and ratios for the grist: malt 14%, barley 40%, oats 16%, rye 30%.
I've read positive comments about oat's effect on the grist from other sources, but also it is messy to handle and cleanup.
I intend to experiment with the above mash bill this winter.

Tim

[IrishWhiskeyChaser]

Good to see you on the forum Timothy ... Best of luck and I hope your trials go well. I wish we were able to do that over here but the punitive laws prohibit such fun ...

Let us know how you get on ...

[Joel1802]

I have found on the back of a bottle of Jameson's 7 y.o. PPS a statement that is is made "solely from barley, malt, wheat, and oats. The bottle is 1950s or 60s. It is the first post war mention of wheat I have come across for PPS.