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To sell or not to sell....

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To sell or not to sell....

Postby scottmb23 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:27 am

I recently acquired 1 of 33 bottles of a rare Midleton Whiskey or in this case, Whisky.

Image

My father (a former London Guinness & Whisky Bar owner) handed me the bottle with the following story (please excuse the vague account).

The Whisky was sold to my father by a Gentleman who had discovered it in Galway, Ireland. At the time my father purchased it, it was still sealed with the Midleton seal in a Carboy. The story of how the Gentleman acquired it is of interest...

His father was a distiller with Midleton’s and after a fire at the factory where a distiller that blew up, it was his father that survived the blast that nearly blew all of his clothes off. After telling this story to a Galway pub owner, the man was led to the basement where he was presented with the Carboy of Whisky his long since departed Father had distilled many years before. He snapped up the Whisky realising the importance of the find.

This was the Carboy of Whisky that was eventually shipped to London and on some advice sold to my father, being that my fathers bar was a famous spot for a rare and expensive Whisky (The Toucan in Carlisle St, Soho). My father took a gamble and purchased the entire lot of whisky and then set about verifying the contents, the seal was broken with witnesses present and a sample was sent to one of the last remaining proofers in Scotland. It was verified as a 43.5% proof .

My fathers bar bottled the contents in 1995 with the help of P.J. Molloy & Son of Covent Garden and the whisky was sold by Milroy’s of Soho in London. At the time these bottles fetched £400 each and 31 of the 33 produced were snapped up fast by collectors and celebrities, including Irish actor Richard Harris who bought a bottle for Sean Connery because he was fed up of hearing Connery quip that the Irish couldn’t make a good whisky. The last remaining bottled went to my father and his business partner.

Jim Murray heard about the bottle shortly after completing his book the Whisky Bible and came into my Fathers bar to sample some and said he wished he had tried the Whisky before completing his book because it was “..One of the best whiskeys he had ever tasted..”.

I am now the owner of my fathers bottle and am interested to find out more about it's value. What do you think? Where would I start?
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Re: To sell or not to sell....

Postby IrishWhiskeyChaser » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:08 am

Excellent and very interesting Story. The problem with stories like this is they are very hard to verify. Could be true but could well contain it's fair share of Blarney too. The story of the explosion down in Midleton is a well recanted story where the person in question was blown out of the still house when the still exploded and landed in the yard with nothing on only his boots and survived to tell the tale. What was your grandfathers name?

The story of the whiskey seems amazing, what was the name of the pub do you know?

A carboy is a large demijohn and would of been in use in the good old days to transport a large portion of a cask of whiskey. 33 bottles were got from your fathers Carboy. 33 x70cl (or 0.7L) equates to circa 23L which equates to circa 40pints which equates to circa 5 gallons. This could well fit the bill as a Carboyis generally is 5gallons but I've seen ones 6-6.5 gallons. But my issue with this is that it is too neat to the story. Remember these are earthen ware and even though glazed would be quite porous and stored full for many years I would expect a far bigger evaporation from the Carboy than 25% even if it was a larger 6.5gallon version. These are quite heavy when full and I would imagine any bigger amount would be sold in cask as was traditional back in the day.

Then the last problem is verifying the whiskey as coming from Midleton, why do they reckon it is from Midleton. Was the Carboy a Midleton issue carboy etc as a seal seems unlikely for this type of container.

Please be assured I'm not trying to discredit your story just being devils advocate. Try and get more detailed info on the story ... pictures of the event and the carboy etc and that will go a long way. It's not that long ago really not to have pictures. Would love to see a full picture of the bottle too if you could upload it as an attachment we'd ge4t a decent sized picture to look at.

In relation to value it is a very hard one to call. Irish whiskey in general does not command huge prices in comparison to scotch but they would be a decent enough value on this anyway. I could see this retailing from 1500-2000Euro but remember if you sell this to a retailer you will get much less as they have to cover the vat and their own profit on the transaction. I'm Guessing 800-1200Euro on the market.

I reckon you should contact The Whiskey Exchange to see what would offer you
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Re: To sell or not to sell....

Postby JohnM » Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:56 pm

I don't know for sure, but I know a 16-year-old single cask Jameson produced recently (one of about 70) went for a very high price. I know first hand!

And I know that people would have paid much more for it. That said, there is a recession at the moment, but this was produced to be collected and is presented very nicely.

And the recent Midleton bottlings are selling for up to 4,000 euro. Of course, whether they're selling or not is a different matter to what they're priced at.

Anyway, I'd be surprised if you didn't get a very, very high price for this bottling. What price I'm not sure.
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More Pictures

Postby scottmb23 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:14 pm

Appreciate the feedback.

Here are some further pictures that I took last night: http://www.styleheist.com/photos/whisky

My father gave me this bottle on his recent visit to Vancouver and told me the story but did suggest I contact his business partner back at The Toucan for all the official documents, not sure if they have photos from the event, am in the process of tracking all of this down.

The photos also show the accompanying document that each bottle of Whisky is shipped with, the story may have been dressed up or down to add some mystique but the main details are essentially the same, I think it just fails to mention the buying process between the distillers son and my father.

Took some advice and sent the Whisky Exchange some details earlier but have not heard back. Thanks to David at Irish Whisky Notes for leading me to this forum!

All the best,

Scott
Last edited by scottmb23 on Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To sell or not to sell....

Postby IrishWhiskeyChaser » Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:57 pm

Well looks like you have a bit of history there and as the letter says authenticated.

Would not like to get your hopes up too much but possible worth far more than I suggested. But as JohnM says, in this climate you never know either.

I would also seriously consider getting on to an Auction firm call McTears in Scotland. They are one of the foremost auctioneers in the Whisky world and also worth talking to.

No hasty sales until you have all your bases covered.
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Re: To sell or not to sell....

Postby JohnM » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:57 pm

Actually, now that I think of it, I remember reading and hearing about this bottling. I know someone who had some in the Toucan. They contacted them after to try to buy a bottle, but it was all gone.

There's also something about it in Classic Irish Whiskey, I thiknk.
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Re: To sell or not to sell....

Postby PureDrop » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:34 pm

Well spotted John - page 183/4 of Jim Murray's "Classic Irish Whiskey" - It was sold by the Toucan at £395 a bottle (in 1995) and £25 a shot. Murray is a fan.
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Re: To sell or not to sell....

Postby IrishWhiskeyChaser » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:27 pm

Just been thinking about this and possibly the valuation I gave for a retail price is a bit low. However on reflection I think my open market price is actually fairly on the ball. Just thinking about recent auctions etc some bottles are not getting what we would have thought.

I always try to be realistic rather than get peoples hope up.

I thinking of the Persse's PPS from Galway of which we only know of 2 surviving bottles from that distillery.

After the fur-roar of them being worth 100,000 each (which we knew was pie in the sky) we thought that they might possibly hit the 4-5000Euro mark.

However this was not the reality and when one was sold at auction it made either 8 or 900 sterling (Can't fully remember) so somewhere around the 1000Euro mark.

Retailers always play on the rarity of the bottles and charge serious money for such bottles but a retailer price cannot be a true indicator on value as it is a matter whether it sells and we see a lot of these bottles remain unsold. If they were scotch they would be achieving stellar prices but unfortunately there is a tiny market for seriously rare bottles of Irish Whiskey and with the current economic environment I can't see this bottle making any more than I guestimated (as that all it is, a guess) at auction and also remember your final price will see a 15% fee (plus vat) if sold at McTears or other auction house.

I could be way off base but just my opinion.

John can you expand on the Jameson 16yo. Have you more details on this ... what is this bottle and what did it go for? I'd be very interested and like to record it for my whiskey archive if possible.
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Re: To sell or not to sell....

Postby JohnM » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:53 pm

Hi Adrian

I think you have record of the Jameson in your archive. It's the one bottled for industry visitors from America. It was a single cask, pure pot still Jameson in a box like the new Midleton Pure Pot Stills.

I'll see can I dig out a picture.

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Re: To sell or not to sell....

Postby beeandvee88 » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:40 am

I remember this being released and available only from the Toucan, Carlisle Street or Milroys of Soho around the corner. Alas I couldn't at that time afford a bottle although I did have a dram or two of same in the bar.

It's all so long ago I'm afraid the memory has paled.

By the way I don't know whether any other members have been to the Toucan which has one of the best selection of Irish around including wide variety of Midleton VR, Cadenhead's Tullamore and Bow Street, Thomas Maher and Henry Downes, all three 'Limerick Distillery' bottlings as well as other rareities.

Alas no more of the 'Old Midleton'

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Re: To sell or not to sell....

Postby JohnM » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:33 pm

beeandvee

The person who I referred to earlier on this thread was, in fact, you...

You might be interested to know, as you are interested in books, that http://www.classicexpressions.co.uk/truths.php are reprinting a few classic whisky books.

Regards

John
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Re: To sell or not to sell....

Postby beeandvee88 » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:13 pm

Hi John

I saw the reprint of the Truth about Whisky but i actually bought an original of this just a few weeks ago at an auction in the States.

The original is pretty rare.

Regards

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Re: To sell or not to sell....

Postby IrishWhiskeyChaser » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:58 pm

There is currently a 2nd Revised Edition on Ebay at the mo ...
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Re: To sell or not to sell....

Postby varizoltan » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:58 pm

it is actually there about 5 months, but 1 picture is a reprint, price was reduced a few times

IrishWhiskeyChaser wrote:There is currently a 2nd Revised Edition on Ebay at the mo ...
Happiness is having a rare steak,a bottle of whiskey, and a dog to eat the rare steak!!!
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